A pair of 1999s

R

Rahsaan

Rahsaan
Dinner with Jonathan Loesberg, Maureen Nelson, and a non wine board couple.

We started with my bottle of 2001 Maximin Grnhaus Abtsberg Auslese which the other folks really seemed to like, especially the non wine board couple who found it so refined although Im not sure if that was because they were being polite or because they dont drink much German Riesling. To my tastes it was definitely a refined and delicate version of Auslese but also a bit blocky and cranky and could be revisited in the future when I hope it is not as blocky or cranky.

As the food began to arrive Jonathan surprised me by not pulling out Chteauneuf-du-Pape but instead gracing our palates with 2007 Overnoy/Houillon Arbois Pupillin Poulsard. Jonathan described it as electric Kool Aid which the non wine board folks found a bit strange, but I liked this quite a bit. Easy to drink, gorgeous vibrant pinkish red color, fragrant, and once the slight prickliness died down I was ready to pick up the drinking pace.

But we also had our pair of 1999s. The 1999 Jadot Clos St. Denis and 1999 Barthod Chambolle Musigny Les Cras. There was some debate over whether the Barthod was corked but in the end the verdict seemed to be No. Others (who drink more Burgundy than I do) were still troubled by its reticence or slightly-off showing but for my relatively-novice palate there was enjoyment to be had with the silky layers and waves of gentle wine. The Jadot was a bit tougher and reminded me of the Grnhaus in its blocky crankiness although others may have gotten more from this than I did.

In the end it was a very nice evening, with conversation that outshined the food, and thankfully the patron who vomited all over the bathroom at the beginning of the evening was not an omen for our table!
 
Rahsaan,
VLM and I discuss this from time to time; Barthod is a fine producer but her wines need an amount of time that I find daunting. Or at least, that's what it seems like to me.
Best, Jim
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
Barthod is a fine producer but her wines need an amount of time that I find daunting. Or at least, that's what it seems like to me.
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I have very limited experience wih her wines although so far it has all been very positive. This one seemed to get better and better over the course of the evening so who knows what would have happened if we had slowed down our pace (or had a bigger bottle!).
 
I liked the Grunhaus probably better than Rahsaan did, though it certainly was in a sullen mood.

I'm no Burgundy expert, but I don't thing the problem with the Barthod was that it was too young. It was the more open of the wines. There was something on the nose that did seem gone later in the evening and so wasn't corking, though it smelled like it to me at first.

I have yet not to be fascinated by an Overnoy/Houillon or Overnoy Poulsard that I've had. This one, I find, particularly wakes you up.

Rahsaan, you will be missed, and by the members of this board as well since you're the only one of us here in DC that writes notes.
 
I don't thing the problem with the Barthod was that it was too young. It was the more open of the wines..
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As a man of logic surely you would agree that these two sentences do not necessarily follow. The Barthod may have been more open than the Jadot but it still could have been too young.
 
The better 1999 Burgundies that I've had recently, although not undrinkable, don't seem to be in a particularly good phase right now.

Grnhaus had bad hail in 2000 and I think there may still have been some residual effect in the vines in 2001.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm: Grnhaus had bad hail in 2000 and I think there may still have been some residual effect in the vines in 2001.
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Interesting. What exactly did that do to the fruit besides reducing the harvest? And you're not one who blames the 'interim' winemaking team?
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
Rahsaan,
VLM and I discuss this from time to time; Barthod is a fine producer but her wines need an amount of time that I find daunting. Or at least, that's what it seems like to me.
Best, Jim
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Yeah, I get that. Sometimes I think they are too tannic for Chambolle.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Claude Kolm: Grnhaus had bad hail in 2000 and I think there may still have been some residual effect in the vines in 2001.
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Interesting. What exactly did that do to the fruit besides reducing the harvest? And you're not one who blames the 'interim' winemaking team?
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No, I think the wines were good all along, they're just often very difficult to judge when young. I had a long talk a few years ago with one of the chief critics of Grnhaus, Armin Diel (who's been in the news a little lately) about it, and in the end Armin said he was criticizing von Schubert for the dry wines. I think people over here often don't recognize how much importance the Germans put on dry wines in evaluating producers. This is the type of thing that can explain why Gault-Millau's chief competitor rates Joh. Jos. Prm 3-1/2 out of 5 stars and below a host of producers you've never heard of.

As for the effect of hail, I'm not a plant physiologist, but I've been told by many producers that the effect of hail when the vines are still at a delicate stage (which is what happened in May 2000 at Grnhaus) can carry over to the following year's crop.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
I don't thing the problem with the Barthod was that it was too young. It was the more open of the wines..
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As a man of logic surely you would agree that these two sentences do not necessarily follow. The Barthod may have been more open than the Jadot but it still could have been too young.
Click to expand...

I was responding to Jim who I took to be suggesting that the wine, since "daunting" because young, was not ready to drink and not merely too young. You are of course right that it could get better or different with age, and one of the differences could be the blowing off of whatever I was getting at first, but I don't think Jim's response put the finger on the hesitations that Maureen and I had.

I'm flattered to be called a man of logic, though.
 
first of all, I don't think it's inconsistent to say a one wine seems younger yet more open - in my experience very young wines are more open that comparable slightly older ones. Second - did you indeed mix up your wines, Rahsaan? The Jadot was by far the silkier, more accessible of the two burgundies. The Barthod indeed seemed slightly corked on the palate but I agree that the wine was interesting nonetheless and the TCA-like aspect seemed to go away after awhile (which is why I guess it wasn't TCA).

To my great surprise, I didn't like the overnoy - perhaps iit was merely because it followed the auslese but it seemed bitter to me - I gave up after a few minutes because the restaurant was short of glasses and I wanted to pour the burgs so I gave mine to Tim, one half of the non-wineboard couple (who, btw,is a rather dedicated burgophile - as a result, he seemed to always want to serve white burgs when he needed a white wine - since he's known me, however, he's discovered the joys and pleasures of german riesling and he and his wife love to drink it now).
 
originally posted by maureen: Second - did you indeed mix up your wines, Rahsaan? The Jadot was by far the silkier, more accessible of the two burgundies..
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!! Now you've got me confused !!

Although I was pretty sure I identified the decanters correctly on the re-pour.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm: No, I think the wines were good all along, they're just often very difficult to judge when young.
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That I can agree with.

...in the end Armin said he was criticizing von Schubert for the dry wines. I think people over here often don't recognize how much importance the Germans put on dry wines in evaluating producers...
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You don't see a wide selection of the Grnhaus dry wines in the States but I plan to buy some on my next trip to Germany because I've been meaning to explore them for some time now.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:

You don't see a wide selection of the Grnhaus dry wines in the States but I plan to buy some on my next trip to Germany because I've been meaning to explore them for some time now.
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Fisch, who hasn't been around here in a while -- I hope he's ok -- likes them. Von Schubert is trying to build his dry reputation now with his Superior wines -- technically, they ferment as far as they go naturally, but the vintages I've had have been dry. They're good, but there's a lot of competition in top dry wine in the Ruwer (even if there isn't very much of the wine) -- Karthuserhof, von Kesselstatt, von Beulwitz.
 
Re what happens to vines when they are hailed upon: IIRC, I was told that the vine is 'aware' that its fruit was destroyed and over-produces in the following season.

Of course, hailed-upon fruit can be dented and torn which creates opportunities for rot and mildew.
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Re what happens to vines when they are hailed upon: IIRC, I was told that the vine is 'aware' that its fruit was destroyed and over-produces in the following season.

Of course, hailed-upon fruit can be dented and torn which creates opportunities for rot and mildew.
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No, that's not what I've heard. The shoots for the next year are already coming out and are damaged. It's not a question of overproduction, which can at least to some extent be dealt with. When there's hail in May, it's not a question of rot, unlike hail in August, because there's no fruit to be damaged. Maybe someone like Steve Edmunds or VS can come in and give a more detailed explanation.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
The better 1999 Burgundies that I've had recently, although not undrinkable, don't seem to be in a particularly good phase right now.
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Interesting, as this was my opinion of the 99's we had at a Niagara event last month.
 
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