Velcorin

K

Kay Bixler

Kay Bixler
Would one of the board chemists or winemakers be able to explain to me how velcorin works and why it requires a specialized and expensive dosing machine?

Is this stuff a viable alternative to sulfites? Is it dangerous? Harmless? Somewhere in between?

Best,
Kay
 
originally posted by Kay Bixler:
VelcorinWould one of the board chemists or winemakers be able to explain to me how velcorin works and why it requires a specialized and expensive dosing machine?

Is this stuff a viable alternative to sulfites? Is it dangerous? Harmless? Somewhere in between?

Best,
Kay
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Velcorin is the trade name for dimethyl dicarbonate, a liquid that inactivates certain key enzymes in various microbiota. It breaks down to methanol and carbon dioxide, neither of which is considered to be a problem (the quantities of methanol produced are insignificant from a toxicological standpoint). It is dangerous, though, if absorbed through the skin as a liquid, so I imagine that the dosing apparatus is in place to avoid human contact with the stuff. To put it into perspective, Clark Smith has gone on record as saying that it's a "nasty chemical," so make of that what you will.

Mark Lipton
 
The toxicological datas in French : here .

If an alternative to sulfur, certainly not from an oxidation protection point of view.

Really, I wouldn't use that stuff in my wines.
 
Not an alternative to sulfites.
Effective against certain types of bacteria if their populations are small enough.
Used in virtually every commercially available fruit juice/drink in the market today.
Safety is arguable but, in sufficient doses, it is toxic. The doses used in wine and juice are quite low and considered by most to be non-toxic.
There are regulations on dosage amounts per ml and how it can be administered, etc.

And, as an aside, IMO Clark gets alot of attention for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is because he states things with rather sweeping generalizations and in emotional terms.

Best, Jim
 
The most obvious nonacute toxicological issue is how easy it might be to get from velcorin to things like ethyl urethane that might be more problematic long-term (carcinogens, etc.). The transesterification to ethyl methyl dicarbonate is demonstrated (and Jim, a big difference between wine and fruit juice in this regard, since it requires ethanol in quantity to happen). That compound will react to make ethyl carbamate that is "probably carcinogenic to humans."

Low levels of ethyl carbamate are also formed in fermentation.

Safety for the operator is very problematic with Velcorin, that shit will blow straight through your skin, but I'm sure manageable with proper equipment and experience and paranoia.

I can imagine velcorin in wine being better than a hideous Brett infection, but I don't love the idea of routine use.

For wines that see very long aging, I bet the ethyl carbamate slowly goes away.

Interesting that the beverage and additive industries have removed any labeling obligation for Velcorin.

I used to use this stuff in grad school to inactivate ribonucleases. But I didn't drink my experiments.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
That compound will react to make ethyl carbamate that is "probably carcinogenic to humans."
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What is the source of ammonia for ethyl carbamate formation? Amino acid transaminase activity?

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
What is the source of ammonia for ethyl carbamate formation? Amino acid transaminase activity?
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So I believe it's known empirically to form.

I figure you're beta-eliminating an acylated primary amine from an amino acid or a protein, but I'm not sure. How do you like the alpha amine of asparagine as a candidate, say?
 
Interesting Joe and Mark - I appreciate the comments.
BTW, it is becoming very wide-spread in the industry in CA (and I assume elsewhere) although a few folks still do it the old fashioned way.
However, if you buy something from the supermarket, it probably got dosed.
Best, Jim
 
A guy I know told me recently that another winemaker had been urging him to use it, saying, "Everyone does it."

My guy is not part of "everyone," it would seem.
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:

BTW, it is becoming very wide-spread in the industry in CA
Click to expand...

One wants to suggest lower pH and light SO2 as an alternative, but why waste breath?
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Florida Jim:

BTW, it is becoming very wide-spread in the industry in CA
Click to expand...

One wants to suggest lower pH and light SO2 as an alternative, but why waste breath?
Click to expand...

California winemakers, generally, seem to be terrified of low pH, at least from an awful lot of the conversations I've been party to. Low pH, for me, on the other hand, is like having both feet on the ground. I like it like that.
 
originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
that should be "PICK EARLIER, DUMMY!," don't you think?
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It is difficult to argue with one's picking decision when one is selling out of bottles at $150 each.
And too many are.
Best, Jim
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
that should be "PICK EARLIER, DUMMY!," don't you think?
Click to expand...
It is difficult to argue with one's picking decision when one is selling out of bottles at $150 each.
And too many are.
Best, Jim
Click to expand...
If it gets you to $150/bottle, I say go for the Velcorin.
 
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