Premox Datum

S

SFJoe

Joe Dougherty
Those who wonder about the mechanism of premox could consult a bottle of P Cotat MD Y2K. Caramel overlay on the palate and tell-tale blue color to the wet end of the cork all say that it shows accellerated aging and premox, though it is still a very tasty drop.

But I remember this wine from its youth, and there was no fashionable shunning of SO2. And the chances that
Pascal adopted a new batonnage regime or a whole new practice in the vineyard seem equally remote.

So we are down to the corks.
 
Bless you, Joe Dougherty, for not saying "data point."

Would you lump the cheapo Marionnet Provignage corks in with this dread lot, then? Is it the cork or the treatment?
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
Premox DatumThose who wonder about the mechanism of premox could consult a bottle of P Cotat MD Y2K. Caramel overlay on the palate and tell-tale blue color to the wet end of the cork all say that it shows accellerated aging and premox, though it is still a very tasty drop.

But I remember this wine from its youth, and there was no fashionable shunning of SO2. And the chances that
Pascal adopted a new batonnage regime or a whole new practice in the vineyard seem equally remote.

So we are down to the corks.
Click to expand...

For ignoramuses such as myself, what is the reason that the wet end of the cork turns blue?
 
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
For ignoramuses such as myself, what is the reason that the wet end of the cork turns blue?
Click to expand...

It can't breathe.

No, I jest.

I believe it is put down to being washed in hydrogen peroxide.
 
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
For ignoramuses such as myself, what is the reason that the wet end of the cork turns blue?
Click to expand...

It can't breathe.

No, I jest.

I believe it is put down to being washed in hydrogen peroxide.
Click to expand...

So the blue is due to partial bleaching of anthocyanin stains? That seems to be a fairly weird phenomenon. Or is this somehow connected to the supposed move to silicone coating of corks in that era?

Mark Lipton
 
Zoiks, I hope you can tell me. Both phenomena get evoked (H2O2 and silicone coating), and I am muddy on which is supposed to be behind the big bad blue.

In matters chemical, I believe the proverb is "A Lipton analysis is worth a million Bowman supposings."

Though maybe .sasha can calculate that more accurately.
 
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
Zoiks, I hope you can tell me. Both phenomena get evoked (H2O2 and silicone coating), and I am muddy on which is supposed to be behind the big bad blue.

In matters chemical, I believe the proverb is "A Lipton analysis is worth a million Bowman supposings."

Though maybe .sasha can calculate that more accurately.
Click to expand...

And maybe we can get the long-absent VLM to provide a valid statistical analysis, if he can spare time away from the twins.

Mark Lipton
 
Being ITB the pre mox thing has been a real pain in more ways than you can imagine. Our sale of white burgs have dropped dramatically. Can't show enthusiasm for a product you personally don't have any faith in. Opened 02 Fevre Les Clos last night, the smell of sherry wafting through the night air.
SHIT!!!!!!! Again & again, and still there has been no mea culpa by anyone in Burgundy. Outrageous
 
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
For ignoramuses such as myself, what is the reason that the wet end of the cork turns blue?
Click to expand...

It can't breathe.

No, I jest.

I believe it is put down to being washed in hydrogen peroxide.
Click to expand...
Rim shot!

I have no idea. But it is often a scary thing to see when you pull a cork. The correlation with bad news is fairly high.
 
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
Bless you, Joe Dougherty, for not saying "data point."

Would you lump the cheapo Marionnet Provignage corks in with this dread lot, then? Is it the cork or the treatment?
Click to expand...
Well, it's the cork, but Cotat does not use cheap-ass Marionnet twin-tops. So it's not just that the cork leaks, it's that something is chemically wrong with it, or so I suppose.

I don't really understand it, but I propose this as an example of a reactionary producer who seemed to love SO2 who nonetheless has premoxed 2000s.
 
I don't really understand it, but I propose this as an example of a reactionary producer who seemed to love SO2 who nonetheless has premoxed 2000s.
Click to expand...

and, as is often the case with premox, inconsistently so - a recent 2000 Grande Cote was just fine

but i'll open another one over the holidays
 
originally posted by .sasha:
I don't really understand it, but I propose this as an example of a reactionary producer who seemed to love SO2 who nonetheless has premoxed 2000s.
Click to expand...

and, as is often the case with premox, inconsistently so - a recent 2000 Grande Cote was just fine

but i'll open another one over the holidays
Click to expand...

Rummaging in the cellar as I type....
 
You can add '01s to a list of troubled Pascal Cotat wines. I ran into a number of over the hill MDs and LGCs about five or so years ago. To be fair, I don't think the '01s were ever destined to be long distance runners but mine seemed to have a very short shelf life.
 
originally posted by Lou Kessler:
I'm interestedBeing ITB the pre mox thing has been a real pain in more ways than you can imagine. Our sale of white burgs have dropped dramatically. Can't show enthusiasm for a product you personally don't have any faith in. Opened 02 Fevre Les Clos last night, the smell of sherry wafting through the night air.
SHIT!!!!!!! Again & again, and still there has been no mea culpa by anyone in Burgundy. Outrageous
Click to expand...
I believe Bouchard/Fevre have admitted problems and, at least in the UK, wines have been replaced by reputable retailers in conjunction with Fevre. For example various 02 wines were recalled by the Wine Society from members even before they had personally experienced premox with them. Some I know had already started to consume them [without problems] and decided to keep what they had. Others had experienced random problems and returned what they had for credit/replacement. Others had not yet opened their wines and returned the lot.

In addition AFAIK Fevre have replaced their bottling line and adjusted their winemaking. They also bottle all but their GCs under DIAM now.

Personally the only poxed Fevre wine I have had [and we drink several cases a year] has been a 2000 Bougros Cote Bouguerots which was immediately replaced.

OTOH I know of others whose problems have been more like yours.
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
For ignoramuses such as myself, what is the reason that the wet end of the cork turns blue?
Click to expand...

It can't breathe.

No, I jest.

I believe it is put down to being washed in hydrogen peroxide.
Click to expand...

So the blue is due to partial bleaching of anthocyanin stains? That seems to be a fairly weird phenomenon. Or is this somehow connected to the supposed move to silicone coating of corks in that era?

Mark Lipton
Click to expand...
Mark, blue anthocyanin stains with a white wine?

All the historical references I have seen to blue-tinged corks at the wet end have been linked to H2O2 cork treatment although I have never seen an explanation for the colour. Nor has the colour been mentioned in the few published studies that have appeared at least in summary although they have said that H2O2 did not appear to be a [significant] cause of the pox.

I have never seen blue H2O2 but I have seen one statement that claimed the colour was linked directly to H2O2 itself.

Can you think of a link between surface treatments [paraffin, or silicone or silicone on paraffin] and H202 and a blue colour? FWIW I have seen the odd cork with a blue tinge but IIRC the wine wasn't poxed.
 
originally posted by nigel groundwater:

Mark, blue anthocyanin stains with a white wine?
Click to expand...

Good point, Nigel. There are other polyphenolics in whites, but I don't know that you'd get color from any of them. To absorb in the visible requires a substantial chromophore.

I have never seen blue H2O2 but I have seen one statement that claimed the colour was linked directly to H2O2 itself.
Click to expand...

That would seem highly unlikely. H2O2 is a colorless liquid and only an impurity would give rise to colo(u)r. I wonder if there could be trace metal ions present on/in the cork that H2O2 could oxidize to some higher oxidation state?

Can you think of a link between surface treatments [paraffin, or silicone or silicone on paraffin] and H202 and a blue colour? FWIW I have seen the odd cork with a blue tinge but IIRC the wine wasn't poxed.
Click to expand...

As you may know, blue is one of the harder colors to get. It's the rare small molecule that looks blue, which is why Perkin made such a splash with his indigo synthesis way back when. Paraffin and silicone are completely saturated so I can't see any easy way to get a chromophore out of them.

As mystified as ever,
Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by nigel groundwater:

Mark, blue anthocyanin stains with a white wine?
Click to expand...

Good point, Nigel. There are other polyphenolics in whites, but I don't know that you'd get color from any of them. To absorb in the visible requires a substantial chromophore.

I have never seen blue H2O2 but I have seen one statement that claimed the colour was linked directly to H2O2 itself.
Click to expand...

That would seem highly unlikely. H2O2 is a colorless liquid and only an impurity would give rise to colo(u)r. I wonder if there could be trace metal ions present on/in the cork that H2O2 could oxidize to some higher oxidation state?

Can you think of a link between surface treatments [paraffin, or silicone or silicone on paraffin] and H202 and a blue colour? FWIW I have seen the odd cork with a blue tinge but IIRC the wine wasn't poxed.
Click to expand...

As you may know, blue is one of the harder colors to get. It's the rare small molecule that looks blue, which is why Perkin made such a splash with his indigo synthesis way back when. Paraffin and silicone are completely saturated so I can't see any easy way to get a chromophore out of them.

As mystified as ever,
Mark Lipton
Click to expand...

Without a clue as to how [vineyard or winemaking] perhaps some residual copper compounds in the wine with some H2O2 naturally present or perhaps [despite general denials] still present in the cork? Copper just seems a possibility from a colour point of view.
 
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