Sell more wine without a wine list?

[Rahsaan]

Went to a wine bar (JaJa, in Berlin) last night, that did not have a wine list. They had bottles lining the shelves, which was something of an advertisement for the types of producers they stocked. But they would not necessarily have the same bottlings/vintages as what you saw on the shelves, and they had a lot more.

So, you had to ask the servers for detailed help.

In my case, I asked what they had from two producers. They then had to go root around and round up 3-4 bottles from each producer. Then after going over those options, they had to go back and find out prices. I mean I knew roughly what each bottle should cost, but the server had no idea and I was not about to blindly order and then find out they were engaged in larcenous pricing.

In the end, it was all very tedious. I suspect I'm not alone here in preferring to see the full set of producer/bottling/vintage options, with prices, in order to determine what best suits my needs for the occasion. There is a place for discovery and allowing the server to suggest things. But, I would need a lot of confidence/trust in the server before going that route!

I suspect this no wine list approach is largely driven by a combination of laziness and the logistical challenges of keeping it updated. But, then I began thinking, maybe the general public prefers such an approach. Most people probably don't want to read producers/vintages. It probably does suit them better to say, 'Bring me a fresh red/sour white for x euros'. So maybe it is a better strategy?

(Of course one could always pursue that suggestion strategy even with a list for those who want it, but maybe I'm being too precise...)

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

it's even worse at Jasyon's place. Bottles everywhere, no list, and I don't even know what I am drinking - the bottles are served in a brown paper bag, or poured off into a flask like your house red of white.

 

[Rahsaan]

And probably expects a generous tip on top of that.

 

[Florida Jim]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
it's even worse at Jasyon's place. Bottles everywhere, no list, and I don't even know what I am drinking - the bottles are served in a brown paper bag, or poured off into a flask like your house red of white.

Geeks.
-sigh-

 

[robert ames]

if your offerings are too extensive to all be on display, you need a wine list.

if you have enough room to have all offerings on the shelf, you will sell more wine by having it on display.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by robert ames:
if your offerings are too extensive to all be on display, you need a wine list.

Sounds like a good principle to me!

Not sure of their thought process, as they have a lot of good wine. But I didn't need to instigate interrogation.

 

[MLipton]

I can understand not wanting to have to continually update a wine list as wines are added and consumed, especially if one deals with small lots of wine. However, technology can deal with that problem. Have it in a database and make it accessible via tablets. It is then dynamic, changing as wines are added or consumed, and additionally can contain as much verbiage as one wants to include about each bottle. I’ve seen this done at a number of places and you could likely get away with just a few tablets for an entire restaurant. The system you describe, Rahsaan, if one can grace as such, sounds tiresome for both server and patron. I’d expect a palace coup at some point.

Mark Lipton

 

[Peter Creasey]

The best solution I've seen is to use bar codes and a scanning procedure to keep track of inventory and depletions.

. . . . . Pete

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by MLipton: The system you describe, Rahsaan, if one can grace as such, sounds tiresome for both server and patron. I’d expect a palace coup at some point.

One would think so! Although they've been going for several years - dating back to pre-pandemic times - and are still packed. So maybe I'm the odd one!

originally posted by Peter Creasey:

The best solution I've seen is to use bar codes and a scanning procedure to keep track of inventory and depletions.

Yes, that would be the way. And they had inventory in a computer. But it might not be setup the best way. Despite the fact that they have a wide range of good wine, up into several hundred euros per bottle.

They also embrace a quirky ethos. Happily selling bottles for over 100 euros with the previous year's label and the vintage scribbled over in ink. The story was they went to the winemaker to pick up wine and only last year's labels were around and they didn't want to waste.

Of course, I'm fine with quirky. But don't block my perusal of the wine!

 

[Jeff Grossman]

Did they have a food menu? (If the concept works for that then....)

 

[Claude Kolm]

I've been to a couple of restaurants in Paris where there was no wine list and the server asks what kind of wine you want (e.g., fruity red) and then gives you a proposal. They got very, very testy when I said that I wanted to see what all the options were. I view it as a method of control over the consumer to sell what the restaurant wants. I will not go back to either one.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Did they have a food menu? (If the concept works for that then....)

Ha!

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
I've been to a couple of restaurants in Paris where there was no wine list and the server asks what kind of wine you want...I view it as a method of control over the consumer to sell what the restaurant wants...

Yes, I immediately thought of experiences in France. And the condescending control factor is definitely part of that.

Although, I'm guessing you may have mixed feelings about the French dynamics. Some of it is the understandable desire to limit pillaging by Rich American (or other) Bros who won't 'appreciate' the rare and fairly-priced wines. Obviously lots of complicated dynamics and lots of ways that can go wrong. But, I do admire something about not just putting everything out for the person who can pay the most.

Who knows, maybe some of that protective condescension was going on here. Although they didn't flinch when I asked for the Wasenhaus selection. Which may not be Overnoy or Rousseau, but is allocated by German retailers...

 

[Bill Lundstrom]

Rarely will I go to a restaurant if I cant see their wine list on their website or be referred by someone I trust. So , this place would make zero off me.

 

[Keith Levenberg]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Did they have a food menu? (If the concept works for that then....)

My first reaction too

If they're gonna make you have conversations like, "Well, what are you in the mood for?" and "Let me check if we have the ingredients for that," may as well stay home.

 

[Karen Goetz]

"...Some of it is the understandable desire to limit pillaging by Rich American (or other) Bros ..." (Rahsaan)

I recently met one of those winestud'Bruz at my cellar storage in Oakland who bragged about cleaning out a bunch of wine shops and restaurants in France. He couldn't believe that anyone would fail to offer wine at the highest possible price. He "...picked up all that wine on the lists; cleaned it up, Dude, all of it!" He exhibited pride in his accomplishment. The stud'Bruz considered it his place as a smart American to clean up and bring it all "home."

I am ashamed.

 

[Andrew Zachary]

originally posted by Karen Goetz:
"...Some of it is the understandable desire to limit pillaging by Rich American (or other) Bros ..." (Rahsaan)

I recently met one of those winestud'Bruz at my cellar storage in Oakland who bragged about cleaning out a bunch of wine shops and restaurants in France. He couldn't believe that anyone would fail to offer wine at the highest possible price. He "...picked up all that wine on the lists; cleaned it up, Dude, all of it!" He exhibited pride in his accomplishment. The stud'Bruz considered it his place as a smart American to clean up and bring it all "home."

I am ashamed.

In the words of another member of this board, winestud'Bruz is a "label fucker." To which I might add, fuck him.