The Next Big Thing?

J

Joe Dressner

Joe Dressner
I drank a bottle or two of Redtail Vineyard Pinot Gris during a recent pre-Thanksgiving dinner in Montral. Delicious stuff at 11 degrees of alcohol (!!!!), balance, flavor and serenity. Ripe and practically a fruit bomb.

This is from Prince Edward County, Ontario and is conveniently located near Hillard (where Jeff Connell lives).

We also had a Pinot Noir from this producer, but I found it weedy and vegetal and was disappointed after the Pinot Gris.

Jeff: Do you know anything about the clonal selections of the Pinot Noir and Pinot Gris?
 
Joie makes a nice wine out of British Columbia, although they're awfully proud of it price wise. I can think of a half dozen Alsace producers that make wine as good or better for half the price.
 
I'm not too far from "the County" and go tasting there at least once a year. I've never been to Redtail, but can comment a bit on the area.

"The County" is a pretty hot culinary region in general, with a number of well-known Toronto chefs moving there. There are probably fifteen different wineries there right now, some huge and some small. Wines can be labeled Prince Edward County even if most of the grapes are from elsewhere, so you have to be careful and pay attention to what type of winery you're dealing with.

The soil is full of limestone, and when you talk to the winemakers they are all excited because they say the soil is identical to that in Burgundy. I'm not sure what to make of this claim, but they usually don't mention the lack of hills or the difference in climate.

The area has only been planted in the last ten years or so. Vines are young, vignerons are still learning the vineyards, etc.

The two best producers are probably Closson Chase and Norman Hardie. The Closson Chase winemaker is Deborah Paskus, who used to be at Tawse, which many people consider Niagra's best winery. Norman Hardie's wine maker is... Norman Hardie.

The 2007 Closson Chase sans chne Chardonnay was really good, probably the best Canadian wine I've had. It was bracing, crisp, and minerally like a good Chablis. The 2008 never came together in my opinion. I've only tasted it once, at the estate, but it had a weird tropical fruit thing going and none of the crisp freshness of the 2007. I find the oaked Chardonnay there to be all about the oak.

For Pinot noir, Closson Chase is very excited about the 2007. It had a ways to go when I tasted it, but I had enough faith that I picked up a couple of bottles to open in two or three years.

The Norman Hardie 2007 Pinot was really enticing out of barrel, but lost something during bottling. He says it was only lightly filtered, but to to me it lost its character. The 2008 Chardonnay was promising out of barrel, but after the 2007 Pinot experience I'm not sure what to expect. Norman Hardie also makes a pretty decent Pinot Gris, a Riesling that I don't recommend, and a Melon de Bourgogne that just didn't seem right to me - it didn't have the minerally, briny taste of Muscadet.

And, as was noted about British Columbia wines, the prices are a bit on the high side.
 
originally posted by Joe Dressner:
The Next Big Thing? Delicious stuff at 11 degrees of alcohol (!!!!)
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When Kermit Lynch began importing Zind-Humbrecht with the 1981 vintage (a lovely, underrated vintage in Alsace, BTW), he bragged that Z-H didn't chaptalize and had wines at 10 and 10.5 alcohol. He also bragged about how the wines were fermented completely dry, without any residual sugar.
http://www.amazon.com/Inspiring-Thi...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259443786&sr=1-1

Oh, for the good old days.
 
originally posted by SteveTimko:
Joie makes a nice wine out of British Columbia, although they're awfully proud of it price wise. I can think of a half dozen Alsace producers that make wine as good or better for half the price.
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Thanks to the generous support of EU agricultural subsidies, no doubt.

I don't know as much about Prince Edward County, but in the Naramata Bench (where Joie is based) most land suited for grapes is also well-suited for retirement homes and McMansions - the costs of entry for young wineries like Joie has been pretty steep and I'm sure that is reflected in the prices.

That said, there is a lot of ambition on the Canadian wine scene and I've seen plenty of, shall we say, aspirational pricing...
 
originally posted by fillay:
originally posted by SteveTimko:
Joie makes a nice wine out of British Columbia, although they're awfully proud of it price wise. I can think of a half dozen Alsace producers that make wine as good or better for half the price.
Click to expand...

Thanks to the generous support of EU agricultural subsidies, no doubt.

I don't know as much about Prince Edward County, but in the Naramata Bench (where Joie is based) most land suited for grapes is also well-suited for retirement homes and McMansions - the costs of entry for young wineries like Joie has been pretty steep and I'm sure that is reflected in the prices.

That said, there is a lot of ambition on the Canadian wine scene and I've seen plenty of, shall we say, aspirational pricing...
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What are these EU agricultural subsidies.

No growers I know are receiving them.
 
Dear Fillay:

I went to Page 10. There is nothing there.

You're not only making up a pseudonym but also a pseudoargument.

Give a concrete example or please go away.

Joe Dressner
 
originally posted by Joe Dressner:
Who are you? I don't like arguing with a fake name.
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I'm sure you'll get over it.

So, let me get this straight: 1.5 billion euros (2006) in direct subsidies for wine production through the Common Agricultural Policy, much of it focused on subsidizing capital investment, lowering the cost of inputs, or ensuring a fixed price for output through harvest insurance or payments for green harvest. Add to that indirect supports, like open borders for labor that ensure a flexible and cheap workforce come harvest.

And none of that lowers the price of a bottle of wine?
 
I don't know who you are or what your beef might be.

I work with 80+ growers in Italy and France. None of them are subsidized.

I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about.

Alternatively, Lou Dobb has joined Wine disorder.
 
So, let me get this straight: 1.5 billion euros (2006) in direct subsidies for wine production through the Common Agricultural Policy, much of it focused on subsidizing capital investment, lowering the cost of inputs, or ensuring a fixed price for output through harvest insurance or payments for green harvest. Add to that indirect supports, like open borders for labor that ensure a flexible and cheap workforce come harvest.

And none of that lowers the price of a bottle of wine?
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Hi there,

Are you a consultant about this?

I emailed some friend growers : even Jean Paul Brun agrees on giving you 10% of all the subsidies you could get for us. TIA
 
"That said, there is a lot of ambition on the Canadian wine scene and I've seen plenty of, shall we say, aspirational pricing..."

Aspirational pricing? Not the white wines of BC, where most of the wineries are. You can't find a white priced outside the $15-$25 retail range.

------------------

Hey Joe, after spending 10 days in Vancouver Island a couple of months ago, drinking mostly BC wines, there was actually one I could see in your portfolio:
2006 Venturi Schulze Brut Naturel. A shockingly nice surprise.

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www.cellartracker.com

Their wines feature ugly labels, little or no added sulfur, and are basically organic but not bio-d.

Blue Mountain's sparkling wine (a/the biodynamic producer), wasn't nearly as good (and we kept getting a glass of it comped!) ...and most common on the wine lists.

Oh, and the winery I was most impressed with is Quails' Gate. The two I had, a pinot noir (with a very Rochiol-like label - perhaps who they want to be) and a chenin blanc (rivals very good Loire chenin) were both very authentic, and delicious.
 
originally posted by fillay:
originally posted by Joe Dressner:
Who are you? I don't like arguing with a fake name.
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I'm sure you'll get over it.

So, let me get this straight: 1.5 billion euros (2006) in direct subsidies for wine production through the Common Agricultural Policy, much of it focused on subsidizing capital investment, lowering the cost of inputs, or ensuring a fixed price for output through harvest insurance or payments for green harvest. Add to that indirect supports, like open borders for labor that ensure a flexible and cheap workforce come harvest.

And none of that lowers the price of a bottle of wine?
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Actually, the CAG spending and regulations are generally intended to prop up prices for mass-produced commodities, similar to our milk, corn and ethanol policies here in the U.S. Most of the infamous European non-appellation "wine lake" would qualify, but that was never marketable here anyway. Marketing and research subsidies are a very small piece of the pie, and tend to be given to regional or cooperative organizations rather than individual producers. Similar grants are available in the U.S., although here I have seen individual producers get small grants. Borders are completely open to labor only within the EU itself, thus giving Joe's producers access to flexible, cheap workforces like the Swiss and Norwegians.
 
Without wading into the question of subsidies, I'll just point out that Canadian and especially Ontario wines receive preferential pricing (lower taxes) from the state-owned alcohol monopoly in Ontario and I believe in a number of other provinces as well.

Is this the case in the US? Do California wines avoid duties placed on French or Italian wines? I assume such duties take place only on the national level and not at the state level, or is this incorrect?

In France do EU wines avoid duties placed on non-EU wines?
 
originally posted by AJ:
Without wading into the question of subsidies, I'll just point out that Canadian and especially Ontario wines receive preferential pricing (lower taxes) from the state-owned alcohol monopoly in Ontario and I believe in a number of other provinces as well.
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I don't think those apply to US wines in Canada - there was a whole section in the original Canada-US Free Trade Agreement about wine, focusing on "harmonizing" US producers' access to the Canadian market.
 
I distinctly recall being among the cheerleaders five years ago promoting New Zealand pinot gris as the next big thing. That didn't exactly pan out, although NZ pinot gris is Big In China.

I would love to see an 11% pinot gris from anywhere. We rarely get to see dry whites under 12%, except from Gascony.
 
originally posted by The Wine Mule:
I distinctly recall being among the cheerleaders five years ago promoting New Zealand pinot gris as the next big thing. That didn't exactly pan out, although NZ pinot gris is Big In China.

I would love to see an 11% pinot gris from anywhere. We rarely get to see dry whites under 12%, except from Gascony.
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Oddly, there is a lot of Pinot Gris planted in Germany. I think it goes into sekt or dry wines that are not marketed here. Claude?
 
originally posted by AJ:

Is this the case in the US? Do California wines avoid duties placed on French or Italian wines? I assume such duties take place only on the national level and not at the state level, or is this incorrect?
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A tax on imported wines (as opposed to all wines) can only be applied at the national level and it is quite nominal in the U.S. I'm sure the Wine Importer can cite the exact figures.
 
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