2 bretty things for a new era

J

Joel Stewart

Joel Stewart
since chateau musar has survived several decades making wine in lebanon...i opened a btl of 99 musar hours before the polls closed in a gesture of optimism and well, pre celebration..tho i had to see it to believe it this time.

see thru ruby/beef blood with some bricking. a whiff of brett, but not overly so...pine needles, cooked beef juices, celery, household cleaner, cookie dough and hints of strawberry compote. attractive, bewildering nose recognizably musar. it took a couple hours for the palate to catch up to that nose...very ripe and clear delineation on the palate, softer than angular, gaining its 14% weight over time. strawbs, cherries, cooked beef juice, beets, all showing saltier than fruitier acidity and pleasing grip on the finish with a touch of tobacco bite. ripe vintage it seems (and some might be disappointed to hear me say this might fair well in a blind with CdP, but thats my take today). would love to see it 5-10 yrs down the road, but drinking nicely now.

orval trappist ale..with a nod to thor and todd

bottled in may 2008....cloudy ale made using brett yeast along with several others in its secondary fermentation. that said, no noticeable brett on the nose after all (and i wonder how they control that brett to just include it as part of the dosage?). this beer started out flat in flavor, some smoke and malt notes...no overbearing sweetness and a tang on the finish more mineral than citric...not bad i think. over time though the dominant profile i really end up liking is the finish and aftertaste....nutty caramelly tobaccoey. in an odd way, sort of like the chili peppered dish you cant stop eating...the finish has all these redeeming qualities, while the rest of the beer seems innocuous...soapy even. and so i continue to consume, waiting for that complex aftertaste to park itself on my palate. pull date says may 2013...maybe i will hide a bottle or two. not bad...and not a bad day either
 
another bottle of orval tonight and a lot more pine and resin on both nose and palate.(hmmm...brett, musar and orval sharing similarities?) subtle sweet notes hang around the edges. more complex reading than yesterday. my palate is skewed to rogue and a few other northwest hoppy beers so europe is always a bit of a struggle, but i can see merit moreso tonight than yesterday....and the finish is still worth the wait.
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
another bottle of orval tonight and a lot more pine and resin on both nose and palate.(hmmm...brett, musar and orval sharing similarities?) subtle sweet notes hang around the edges. more complex reading than yesterday. my palate is skewed to rogue and a few other northwest hoppy beers so europe is always a bit of a struggle, but i can see merit moreso tonight than yesterday....and the finish is still worth the wait.
Click to expand...

I like Orval, and have come to expect different things from this beer depending on my mood. But I haven't had one i n awhile. I tend to like this Trappist more in the summer for some reason.

To start a tangent, I have to bring up Duchesse. When Duchesse is fresh, I can't stomach more than half a beer, due to its balsamic-like quality. But it seems that with age, all of the aggressive-ness subsides into a more soft sour cherry which I love. But I prefer Vichtenaar, which seems more readily to consume. I don't have patience to age beer, but if I can find one with some age on it...

My Trappist preference is Westmalle, probably the dubbel. I've always been more of a fan of dubbels than tripels. Is Orval a dubbel or tripel?
 
originally posted by Bill Averett:
Is Orval a dubbel or tripel?
Click to expand...

I dont believe its a beer that fits into any category. Its certainly not a dubbel or tripel.

I havent tasted a Duchesse de Bourgogne in years but I remember it being fairly tame compared with Cantillon that will strip the enamel from your teeth (in a good way).
 
I agree, that I don't think it fits into a category, and I must admit, I'm not that well versed on the rules and styles of beer making, but if an ale is triple fermented, does that make it a tripel?
 
Not at all. It mainly has to do with the beer's alcohol content though there are other minor stylistic attachments to it.

Anyway, beer categorization, much like point systems for other beverage groups, is highly overrated.
 
yes, from what ive read lately, orval is its own thing...sort of like musar is. todd do you see a consistency in the batches? i know for a fact that musar practically revels in vintage variation...just wondering about orval that way.

on a final note for bottle #2 of orval...i am really and finally impressed. first off, i like the beer better after its been in the glass and gotten closer to cellar temp. now it is showing all of these bretty things that i picked up from the musar yesterday and its surprising how much depth this beer has. i was merely joking about the brett connection when i made the initial post and now the joke is on me...(in a good way)
 
Cantillon is good stuff. I've been a bit disappointed with the Orvals of recent years: they seem to have become soft and easy and are not at all as funky as the few earlier bottlings I've managed to try. But some of those earlier ones are still drinking very well: last week my boss from the bookshop and I shared an Orval that was bottled in the late '80s and it was fantastic and funky and dry. Is it just my imagination or has Orval become progressively sweeter with every new release?

Musar '99 is another favourite of mine. I didn't realize what was meant by Musar and CdP being similar until I got to try Texier's and Marie Beurrier which indeed were rather Musary to me. I think I might be a closet CdP fan, though I might have to don a tin suit on Disorder for saying that...

-O
 
these 2 btls of orval i had were not remotely sweet like other belgians ive had...i was thankful for that....but as for a trend...i cant help. i would love to try some aged versions tho...may just have to age some myself.

thanks for the tips on texier and beurrier!
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
todd do you see a consistency in the batches?
Click to expand...

I dont drink nearly enough to tell but Orval is a high-tech outfit so Id have to believe most variation is going to come from age and storage conditions.
 
note on beer categorization- i met with one of my customers earlier, who is a big beer guy, and he said Orval is a Belgian strong. So, there's the label.
 
I think I might be a closet CdP fan, though I might have to don a tin suit on Disorder for saying that...
Click to expand...

Chateaneuf and Disorder...fightin' words here for all the grenache-haters!

(speaking as one of the minorities who enjoys a good grenache-based wine
every once in awhile)
 
originally posted by MarkS:
I think I might be a closet CdP fan, though I might have to don a tin suit on Disorder for saying that...
Click to expand...
Chateaneuf and Disorder... fightin' words here for all the grenache-haters!

(speaking as one of the minorities who enjoys a good grenache-based wine
every once in awhile)
Click to expand...
Oh man, I love a good grenache! Or garnacha. When it is grown and made well it can be like magic. I have a few vintages of this old Chteauneuf-du-Pape, made from 100% Grenache that I have to absolutely keep my hands off because I would just drink them all down. So, they get a little bit older all the time. One of these days I will drink a bottle.

Or even something like the Ochoa Rosada, or Seniorio de Sarria No. 5, both 100% Garnacha, can be pure delight.

I gather it is getting ever more difficult to achieve balanced ripeness with the variety, with recent summers pushing the sugars too high way too fast.
 
originally posted by Otto Nieminen:
Cantillon is good stuff.
-O
Click to expand...
Otto, I need you to explain Cantillon to me. It isn't something one can find here in Canada, so I have very limited experience. But last Spring I had a Grand Cru (maybe 1995), Gueuze, and Kriek. I think I got the Kriek okay, and preferred the Gueuze to the Grand Cru, which seemed a bit marked by wood. But with both of these I though I was drinking Aceto. Does that make any sense?
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
these 2 btls of orval i had were not remotely sweet like other belgians ive had...
Click to expand...

True, even the most recent Orvals I've had haven't been fully sweet like most Trappist Dubbels, but they have gone from a Cantillony dryness to something with a slight touch of sweetness and I think are the worse for that and the many other panderings to mass tastes that it has gone through.

Otto, I need you to explain Cantillon to me. [...] which seemed a bit marked by wood. But with both of these I though I was drinking Aceto. Does that make any sense?
Click to expand...

Marked by wood? Nope. Doesn't make sense to me. Vinegar? I hadn't noticed that, but I can see where you get the association from. The beers are marked by strong Brettanomyces Bruxellensis yeast aromas and are so dry as to make the Rub al-Khali look like the hanging gardens of Niniveh. They can be rather extreme beers until one tries them with some fatty foods which tames down the harsh, rasping acidity. I actually enjoy them even without the fat. I guess the piercing nature of the beers can be similar to Balsamico - I'll have to concentrate on that and your mention of woodiness when I next try these.

-O
 
originally posted by Otto Nieminen:
The beers are marked by strong Brettanomyces Bruxellensis yeast aromas and are so dry as to make the Rub al-Khali look like the hanging gardens of Niniveh. They can be rather extreme beers until one tries them with some fatty foods which tames down the harsh, rasping acidity. I actually enjoy them even without the fat. I guess the piercing nature of the beers can be similar to Balsamico - I'll have to concentrate on that and your mention of woodiness when I next try these.
Click to expand...

I was fortunate enough to be able to tour the Cantillon Brewery (Musee de la Gueuze) in Brussels the summer before last -- well worth doing. Only the wild, naturally occuring yeasts present in the air are used, brett being prime among them. Brewing is only done from October through April when the temperatures are right. The wort is poured into a giant shallow pan and left overnight to interact with the airborne yeasts. To preserve the yeasts, the 200+ year-old facility is never swept or dusted. Cobwebs are everywhere, which helps keep down the bug population. They said if they were ever forced to move, Cantillon would cease to exist because it would be impossible to replicate in another location.

I was able to taste the lambic (uncarbonated; it reminded me of very dry sherry), gueze, kriek, framboise (reminded me of bone-dry rose Champagne), iris and a couple of others. Definitely an acquired taste, sandpaper dry, searingly tart, often-overwhelming brett aromas, yet as complex as many wines and definitely best consumed with food. I love the stuff, but it's definitely not for everyone.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top