Cuozzo/Asimov - strong contrasts

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Peter Creasey

Peter Creasey
In an article, Steve Cuozzo wrote about various things he dislikes about the restaurants he appears to be forced to go to. Here's his thesis about natural wines:

Natural wine lovers are cultish in their enthusiasm for funky vinos made without additives or filtration, but they’re not for everyone.

At the new Frenchette in Tribeca, wine director Jorge Riera is proud that the hundreds of bottles on offer are all natural, but such a classically modeled bistro needs more options. Those who prefer what “natural” proponents deplore as “industrial wine” — i.e., the kind most of us have loved all our lives — are left thirsty.
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On the other hand, compare that with Eric Asimov's piece in the Times:

Instead, Frenchette has gone off the rails, charting a completely different course. The wine director, Jorge Riera, has put together a list that is entirely, uncompromisingly, focused on natural wines, a controversial genre in which the grapes are farmed organically at the least, and the wine produced with minimal artifice or manipulation.

In short, it’s a challenging list that may annoy some people who want recognizable names, yet is also brilliant. Mr. Riera, the wine director who came to Frenchette from Contra and Wildair, has built a list full of wonderful discoveries, great values and the sort of direct, unmediated experiences that characterize natural wines at their best. Almost all the wines are low in alcohol as well, 13 percent or less, and they go very well with the cuisine.
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. . . . Pete
 
It's a disagreement between those who think that every restaurant has to offer something for every potential customer and those who think that a restaurant is allowed to specialize and attract those who like their specialty.

I'm in the latter camp of course.

I wouldn't go to a vegetarian restaurant and complain that I can't get a steak or a steakhouse and complain that the vegetarian option isn't good.
 
Cuozzo seems to be taking a leaf out of the RMP playbook. You like different wines than I do? You're part of a cult, then (marginally preferable, I suppose, to being labeled the "wine Taliban" back in the mid-aughts). These people seem to decry a form of groupthink on the one hand (and there certainly may be some groupthink among the more dogmatic of the naturalistas) while completely overlooking the groupthink that grounds their own thinking. Cue Matthew 7:1-5.

And, no surprise, I completely agree with Jay. Just as I prefer the menu of a restaurant to reflect a certain point of view and have a focus, so too do I like winelists that are something more than whatever the local schnooks were pushing last month.

And get offa my lawn, dammit!
Mark Lipton
 
Old news. Hasn't Cuozzo been harping about this for a while. Plus, who in their right mind would read the NY Post for gastronomical guidance.
 
I agree with Jay too. But to be fair, Cuozzo wasn't complaining about people who like natural wine as cultists--though he does refer to them (gasp) as proponents. He was only bemoaning the fact that he can't get the kind of wine he likes at the restaurant. Jay's response was the right one, not that Cuozzo was a Parker crazy but that he was wrong in thinking that all restaurants must be for all people. On the other hand, maybe he thinks the restaurant serves good food and he just wished he could get some wine he like there. I feel the same way about restaurants that have no wine on the list that I find interesting so I can sympathize. I still think Jay is right, which I think I've now said far too many times.
 
The big and fat irony here is that the purity of fruit achieved by great old classics (think '45 and '61 Bordeaux) is barely achieved today - if at all - in what this writer would call traditionally made wines. Yet the very best of so-called natural wines have it. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water.
 
originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
The big and fat irony here is that the purity of fruit achieved by great old classics (think '45 and '61 Bordeaux) is barely achieved today - if at all - in what this writer would call traditionally made wines. Yet the very best of so-called natural wines have it. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water.
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Er, what natural wines are gonna remind me of '45 and '61 Bordeaux?
 
This is a restaurant in Tribeca, in 2018, yes? Presumably, it's paying Tribeca rent, and, apparently, has a significant marketing budget. And, its wine list - - which is normally how a restaurant turns a profit - - is all natural? Does anyone else think this place may be gone within a year?
 
originally posted by Asher:

This is a restaurant in Tribeca, in 2018, yes? Presumably, it's paying Tribeca rent, and, apparently, has a significant marketing budget. And, its wine list - - which is normally how a restaurant turns a profit - - is all natural? Does anyone else think this place may be gone within a year?
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You might be right. But only a particularly wine-focussed restaurant (e.g., Rouge Tomate w/Pascaline) makes a lot of profit from wine because their wine sales are a higher proportion of total sales, otherwise wine is a much smaller profit center than food in a normal place. I'd say - from experience - it is how well the entire place is managed not one thing. And minimising waste and labor cost is key. Chefs are often let go not because their food ain't great, but most often because they cannot control costs (that doesn't mean using cheap or poor quality ingredients, in case there is some doubt about that).
 
Some of the most successful restaurants I've known about had a policy of pricing their wines (i)down(/i) and making their profit on their food. Some of these places priced their wines barely above retail and, largely as a result, did/do a turn-away business.

It seems reasonable that a proprietor should be able to set up his menu however he wishes (as long as there is no misrepresentation).

. . . . . Pete
 
Restaurant wine pricing is a particular sore spot with me. The standard US markup of 3x wholesale (or whatever it is) is a disincentive to buy more expensive wines, leaving them for the most part to the expense account crowd. A friend of mine in France has long advocated for a different scheme in which there’s a fixed markup on every wine regardless of price. As it is, I will normally balk at paying $75 in a restaurant for someone’s Bourgogne rouge, let alone the $150 charged for village level bottling.

Mark Lipton
 
MarkL/ I think there are a few examples of NYC restaurants that use a lower markup and, therefore, sell more bottles. I have also been to many new restaurants, especially smaller ones, where the wine list doesn't go above $75/bottle. Whether that's because they can't get hoity-toity bottles or think they won't sell them, I don't know.

MarkE/ Interesting that the significant under-the-hood indicator is waste, both labor and food. I have never been in the restaurant business so I had only imagined it was all about convincing people to come dine. (Ultimately, the patrons pay for everything so increasing that would help.)
 
originally posted by MLipton:
Restaurant wine pricing is a particular sore spot with me. The standard US markup of 3x wholesale (or whatever it is) is a disincentive to buy more expensive wines, leaving them for the most part to the expense account crowd. A friend of mine in France has long advocated for a different scheme in which there’s a fixed markup on every wine regardless of price. As it is, I will normally balk at paying $75 in a restaurant for someone’s Bourgogne rouge, let alone the $150 charged for village level bottling.

Mark Lipton
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Well, the mark-ups in France are much higher than what I use. As you know, I do a decelerating exponential based on cost so that more expensive bottles (those that cost me >~$45 wholesale) are marked up 2x (I've flirted with moving the lower asymptote but we offer employees 50% off and we'd have to put checks on that simple system). Less expensive bottles are marked up at a higher rate. Wine is a decent, but not great, profit center for us. We provide proper storage, Riedel stemware and decanters for them. Frankly, all the work I put into it including keeping off site storage, working hard to source good wine, doesn't pay off at all. Most customers don't give a shit.

I've thought about doing a flat value added rate to wines, but I'm not sure how much it would matter in terms of sales. Most folks are drinking in the $40-80 range where a flat rate would be worse than my markup.

BTW, good Bourgogne rouge (Barthod, Lignier) costs me >$30 wholesale.
 
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Asher:

This is a restaurant in Tribeca, in 2018, yes? Presumably, it's paying Tribeca rent, and, apparently, has a significant marketing budget. And, its wine list - - which is normally how a restaurant turns a profit - - is all natural? Does anyone else think this place may be gone within a year?
Click to expand...

You might be right. But only a particularly wine-focussed restaurant (e.g., Rouge Tomate w/Pascaline) makes a lot of profit from wine because their wine sales are a higher proportion of total sales, otherwise wine is a much smaller profit center than food in a normal place. I'd say - from experience - it is how well the entire place is managed not one thing. And minimising waste and labor cost is key. Chefs are often let go not because their food ain't great, but most often because they cannot control costs (that doesn't mean using cheap or poor quality ingredients, in case there is some doubt about that).
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100%. Cut your steaks wrong and your profit goes up in smoke real fast, regardless of what your wine mark-up is.
 
Mark-up in France seems to be 3x ex cave price around where we live, even for wines not from the area. About a month ago, we had a bottle of 2014 Balthazar les Chaillots for 58 euros (remember, that includes tax and tip so it's really slightly less than $58, even with a $1.25 exchange rate to the euro). That's less expensive than anywhere I can find on winesearcher. Paris, of course, will be different. That price, by the way, while it stood out to me, was by no means the only one like that.
 
My two recent experiences (in the U.S.) that involved special orders from distributors for very large parties at restaurants revealed a mark-up scale closer to what VLM describes. As a starting point, I was given the restaurants' standard prices ranges for 4x, 3x, 2x, etc. mark-ups. I negotiated, needless to say.
 
Jonathan, your experience mirrors my own. I am happy, sometimes gleeful, to order wine off a list in France. Even BTG offerings seem much more reasonable there by and large.

VLM, I eagerly await your foray into my benighted region of flyover country. Until then, I must deal with the shithead pricing I describe above.

Mark Lipton
 
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