This was kind of the point I was making: that European universities are either free or at vastly reduced rates to the populace, unlike here in the United States. I wasn't referring to within the US, where even "public" education is expensive to all but the upper class (notwithstanding scholarship kids).
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Impressions November 2020 Part III
- Thread starter VLM
- Start date
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Well, TAs are so much more approachable, you august personage, you.originally posted by MLipton:
Not entirely. You can pay plenty to be an undergrad at Harvard or Stanford and still have no smaller class size or contact with a Professor than at a large public school. OTOH, my department at a large public institution has the policy that all classes are taught by tenure-track faculty. Any Chem major here who wants to meet me has merely to come to one of my office hours (an offer that few take advantage of).
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
There is a reason, American higher education draws in so many students from abroad.
But those reasons don't have much to do with face time with professors!
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
There is a reason, American higher education draws in so many students from abroad.
But those reasons don't have much to do with face time with professors!
They have to do with their reputations, which have to do with the quality of education they give, which has to do with facetime with professors. I admit that some number of foreign students come here hoping to remain here and might do so regardless. of the quality of the education. But even taking that into account, many if not most, either mean to go back to their native countries or realize that they probably will, and do not come here with staying as a primary reason but in fact for the quality of education.
I would wager that the following factors are all more important than quality of education/face time with you and me.
-Prestige of the degree (based on the selectivity of application process, not anything that occurs in the classroom once they arrive)
-Networking with other (elite) people who got admitted
-Campus life
-Travel/time away from home country
-Access to the US labor market
-Prestige of the degree (based on the selectivity of application process, not anything that occurs in the classroom once they arrive)
-Networking with other (elite) people who got admitted
-Campus life
-Travel/time away from home country
-Access to the US labor market
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by Rahsaan:
I would wager that the following factors are all more important than quality of education/face time with you and me.
-Prestige of the degree (based on the selectivity of application process, not anything that occurs in the classroom once they arrive)
-Networking with other (elite) people who got admitted
-Campus life
-Travel/time away from home country
-Access to the US labor market
I have already addressed your last point. It's true that time away from one's own country is an attraction, but that should work equally for U.S. students and it does not. European campuses have campus life. And an elite university in France is far better for forming the basis of a career than one in an American University. It is hard to get into the Sorbonne or École Normale Sup, but if one manages it, one's future is almost assured. Indeed, given the way the channeling system works there, getting into the University best for one's desired profession is the hard part. If you make it through, there will be a job at the other end, even these days. Your first point is another way of talking about reputation, which I have already mentioned, and which does go back to quality.
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
European campuses have campus life.
Are you serious! They have nothing near the campus life of an American university. Plus, Europe is one small source of students. The big cash cow for American universities is Chinese students, not to mention the rest of the world, where campus experiences are even less robust.
And an elite university in France is far better for forming the basis of a career than one in an American University. It is hard to get into the Sorbonne or École Normale Sup, but if one manages it, one's future is almost assured.
??? Maybe if you're French. Nobody outside of France cares about those places. And again, French/European students are not the main source of foreign students in the US.
Your first point is another way of talking about reputation, which I have already mentioned, and which does go back to quality.
Look up the studies on signaling and the added value of elite schools. It's not about the classroom.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
It's true that Chinese students would come here on any terms and that's been true for probably 25 years. But American Universities have attracted foreign students for a long time before that. And while European students are a small percentage of foreign students, they are not a small percentage of European students relative to the students we export there. But if you think that the experience of the teaching they get here has nothing to do with the appeal, just talk to any foreign student who has experience in both places.
Sure, reputation is self-fulfilling. But it doesn't come from nowhere. It's just not true that Harvard is Harvard just because it's Harvard. When I used to advise students about graduate programs, although in fact Harvard wasn't high on my list, and some state schools were (if you want to be a Victorianist, you can do a lot worse than Rutgers or Indiana), still, the conjunction between good programs and ritzy names was pretty high.There usually is a there there.
Sure, reputation is self-fulfilling. But it doesn't come from nowhere. It's just not true that Harvard is Harvard just because it's Harvard. When I used to advise students about graduate programs, although in fact Harvard wasn't high on my list, and some state schools were (if you want to be a Victorianist, you can do a lot worse than Rutgers or Indiana), still, the conjunction between good programs and ritzy names was pretty high.There usually is a there there.
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
But if you think that the experience of the teaching they get here has nothing to do with the appeal, just talk to any foreign student who has experience in both places.
The question is not whether the teaching has nothing to do with the appeal, but where it falls on the rank ordering of attractions. But I doubt we'll be able to solve this without consulting actual research! (Which is probably beyond the scope of this board experience)
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Sure, reputation is self-fulfilling. But it doesn't come from nowhere. It's just not true that Harvard is Harvard just because it's Harvard. When I used to advise students about graduate programs, although in fact Harvard wasn't high on my list, and some state schools were (if you want to be a Victorianist, you can do a lot worse than Rutgers or Indiana), still, the conjunction between good programs and ritzy names was pretty high.There usually is a there there.
Graduate vs undergraduate is a completely different calculation. For undergrad, yes, there is obviously a there there that separates Harvard. But it's mainly about networking with the other elite students and the broad set of campus resources (of which faculty pedagogy is just one tiny bit).
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Last I checked, Nathan, you are translucent (if not transparent).
Jayson Cohen
Jayson Cohen
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
Thanks for the great notes.
I don’t think I’ve tried the 2019 Falkenstein No. 12 yet. (It’s in the queue.) Do you have another friend named Jayson who is Falkenstein-obsessed?
That said, I’m sure the wine is all you say it is, and I’m sure I am right about it (or will be),
I thought I saw you post on this wine somewhere. Perhaps I'm mistaken. But yes, we're both right. This is a different seeming Falkenstein in the early going. I should probably go back to a 2017 or 2018 to compare.
I opened one tonight. I blinked and 2/3 of the bottle was gone. After 5 minutes I was getting the blossoms, citrus, (petrichor), and minerals. My bottle is surprisingly open. Zingy and deep. I’m loving this. But I’m going to be disciplined and let the rest of the bottle open further overnight.