Impressions January 2021, Part II

[VLM]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by VLM:

2016 Domaine Charvin Côtes du Rhône (Le Poutet) - France, Rhône, Southern Rhône, Côtes du Rhône (1/17/2021)
I have to say, I was disappointed with this bottle...

2016 Domaine Charvin Ch“teauneuf-du-Pape - France, Rhône, Southern Rhône, Ch“teauneuf-du-Pape (1/17/2021)
Another disappointment. Rather boozy and unrefined...

Blatant Loesberg bait.

And I will answer. The CdR goes through a closed period usually somewhere between. 3 and 5. I would have expected the 16 to be exiting it, so maybe you just don't like the wine that much, but I'd give it a couple of more years. I just drank my last 05 over the weekend and it was still alive and well.

CdP's in general close anywhere between 3 and 7 years. 5 is the perfect age not to drink them. Although Charvin denies that wines close (they just change, he says), this particular change is usually to be avoided. I try to keep my hands of his wines in big years until they are nine or ten, though cooler years like 11, 13 and 14 can show well now.

I've liked previous bottles of this CDR but was hoping for more with time which I didn't get, so maybe it's the wine or me.

With the CndP, I've certainly had some in phases I don't like, but I didn't expect it to be so mute and joyless. I've buried my remaining bottles.

This sort of makes me think (or begs the question) what CndP can I have on my list? We've been selling Bois de Boursan 2016 and I guess it'll be 2017. In fact, it's one of the best movers on the list. I don't ever drink it, so is it selling because of price and name or do people really like it?

 

[Zachary Ross]

originally posted by VLM:
I think that Berthoumieu comes in to the market from time to time, I think Charles Neal imports it. I have no memory of it, but I'm sure I've tried it. Anyone have thoughts?

I've had Berthoumieu's "Charles de Batz" in the past and liked it, but it's been a long time.

From Gascogne I've really enjoyed Domaine du Chateau Larroque. Moore Brothers imports it. It's got a fair amount of Tannat in it, along with Cabernet, Merlot, and Syrah. Would work well with cassoulet.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by VLM:
This sort of makes me think (or begs the question) what CndP can I have on my list? We've been selling Bois de Boursan 2016 and I guess it'll be 2017. In fact, it's one of the best movers on the list. I don't ever drink it, so is it selling because of price and name or do people really like it?

Less ambitious Ch9 isn't so badly behaved.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

Bois du Boursan makes good CdP and if you can offer it at a reasonable price, it should sell well. For a restaurant, if you can't serve them 10 years old, I would indeed keep up with the current vintages as the safest thing to do. Although Bois du Boursan can start huffing and puffing at age 20, it really is at its best between 10 and 20. Jeff is right that some CdPs go through very short closed periods and are also not built for aging. But really, my version of the rule of 15 for CdP is to keep your hand off between ages 4 and 7 if you can. Some may drink well in there, but you'll never be punished for the restraint.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Bois du Boursan makes good CdP and if you can offer it at a reasonable price, it should sell well. For a restaurant, if you can't serve them 10 years old, I would indeed keep up with the current vintages as the safest thing to do. Although Bois du Boursan can start huffing and puffing at age 20, it really is at its best between 10 and 20. Jeff is right that some CdPs go through very short closed periods and are also not built for aging. But really, my version of the rule of 15 for CdP is to keep your hand off between ages 4 and 7 if you can. Some may drink well in there, but you'll never be punished for the restraint.

Well, CndP has never been something we "cellar" for the list, we generally buy the current available vintage.

Honestly, I find myself having less and less use for wines that go through "shut down" periods. I understand that wines will sometimes show better than others, depending on age and what you want from it, but I'm finding my favorite wines are those that I can get pleasure from at any age. I'm starting to think that many of the best wine may be that way as recent young bottles of Roagna, Cappellano, Roddolo, Mugneret-Gibourg, Lignier, Collier, Champet, Faurie, Gramenon Mémé attest. Surely, many of them will get "better" with more time in the cellar but I find myself gravitating to producers that don't require a goddamn decoder ring to enjoy.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

For a restaurant without a cellar, this makes perfect sense. For my own cellar, I don't really look for reasons to write off types of wine, although perforce it happens: at age 70, I may still buy green bananas, but new Bordeau, Barolo, etc., not so much. I stopped buying CdP to cellar after 2016, though I'll still buy and drink new vintages when I'm there. So I see your point.

I am surprised that you don't have to watch out for Champet and Faurie (Northern Rhones can be much more sulky than CdPs) and even Gramenon. But I don't have much experience with any of those wines.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
For a restaurant without a cellar, this makes perfect sense. For my own cellar, I don't really look for reasons to write off types of wine, although perforce it happens: at age 70, I may still buy green bananas, but new Bordeau, Barolo, etc., not so much. I stopped buying CdP to cellar after 2016, though I'll still buy and drink new vintages when I'm there. So I see your point.

I've also had good young Barolo from Pricipiano and Sandri (big surprise). I don't really buy Bordeaux all that much, but we're finding a lot more accessible wines among the small growers brought in by importers like Rosenthal than one would find in traditional classed growth Bordeaux through the old negociant system.

I am surprised that you don't have to watch out for Champet and Faurie (Northern Rhones can be much more sulky than CdPs) and even Gramenon. But I don't have much experience with any of those wines.

I was really surprised by the Champet and the Faurie. Granted, it wasn't a 2018 Faurie, but still.

Gramenon Mémé is one of my favorite wines and fits the bill for "always good but in different ways".

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by VLM:
I'm finding my favorite wines are those that I can get pleasure from at any age. I'm starting to think that many of the best wine may be that way as recent young bottles...Lignier...attest...I find myself gravitating to producers that don't require a goddamn decoder ring to enjoy.

Sure, who wouldn't want wines that show well! The challenge for me has been finding wines that show well young AND are in a style that I enjoy, given my taste preferences.

So Lignier generally shows well across the age span? Perhaps I choose poorly. I had several bottles each of the 17 Bourgogne Grand Chaliot and the 13 MSD Tres Girard this past fall. They were all tight and probably not yet ready to show their best.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by VLM:
I'm finding my favorite wines are those that I can get pleasure from at any age. I'm starting to think that many of the best wine may be that way as recent young bottles...Lignier...attest...I find myself gravitating to producers that don't require a goddamn decoder ring to enjoy.

Sure, who wouldn't want wines that show well! The challenge for me has been finding wines that show well young AND are in a style that I enjoy, given my taste preferences.

So Lignier generally shows well across the age span? Perhaps I choose poorly. I had several bottles each of the 17 Bourgogne Grand Chaliot and the 13 MSD Tres Girard this past fall. They were all tight and probably not yet ready to show their best.

It could have been luck. I had 2009 and 2012 recently. Folks would say those are "too young" but I found them delicious. Meanwhile, I have no idea when a Louis Boillot wine will show well. All of my experience tells me those wines will be great one day, but damn, I don't know if I'm the type of guy for that kind of wine anymore.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by VLM:

Meanwhile, I have no idea when a Louis Boillot wine will show well. All of my experience tells me those wines will be great one day, but damn, I don't know if I'm the type of guy for that kind of wine anymore.

Yes, I think I mentioned that I slowed down buying Louis Boillot because I have a bunch (by my standards, accounting for 60% of my red Burgundy) but none of it is ready to drink and I could use some proof that it's worth the investment!

That said, while I have tried to diversify the Burgundy portfolio a bit, it's hard to find a generous red Burgundy that also pleases my palate. And I don't have money for Mugneret-Gibourg.

 

[robert ames]

i find a seriously good quality to price ratio with the wines of sylvain pataille in marsannay. no doubt having a low rent address contributes to the pricing.

 

[Jayson Cohen]

originally posted by robert ames:
i find a seriously good quality to price ratio with the wines of sylvain pataille in marsannay. no doubt having a low rent address contributes to the pricing.

Depending on where you buy in the US, and there isn’t much coming in, there’s been some *this is a hot producer* pricing. But I’m also a fan now.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:

originally posted by robert ames:
i find a seriously good quality to price ratio with the wines of sylvain pataille in marsannay. no doubt having a low rent address contributes to the pricing.

Depending on where you buy in the US, and there isn’t much coming in, there’s been some *this is a hot producer* pricing. But I’m also a fan now.

They're Becky Wasserman here and tariff hit, so they are not cheap, in fact,
they are expensive for Marsannay. That being said, I find that the wines provide fair value. I'm most intrigued by the different single vineyard Aligoté from old clonal genetic stock.

 

[Brian C]

originally posted by VLM:

Gramenon Mémé is one of my favorite wines and fits the bill for "always good but in different ways".

Do you know what the story is with the Gramenon Papesse? From the KLWM site it doesn’t explicitly say so, but looks like it might be the young vines (well 60yo as opposed to 100+) from the Mémé vineyard? We don’t see the Mémé in our market but a local shop just brought in the ‘17 Papesse.

*edit* sorry, that was lazy research. Looks like a different vineyard location, but would be interested in impressions...

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

PIling on, is the name of this vineyard a reference to the Tarot card,usually known as the High Priestess, Pope Joan, or something else equally recondite. The names of cuvées have gotten somewhat recherché, but this one seems over the top.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

The label has an image behind the text of the High Priestess card from the Marseilles tarot deck, reduced to black/white and heavily faded.