Did you ever open a bottle by mistake....

Years ago, when my parents still lived in Missouri and Kermit Lynch would not ship to DC, i used to have my purchases shipped to my parents for my mother to forward to me. To thank them, I’d buy wine for them too. So one Sunday morning I am chatting with my mother and she asks, “Is all Vouvray sweet?” I said, “no” and wondered what sweet vouvray she and my father might have ordered off a wine list in St Joseph, Mo. i asked if she knew what it was and she said, “yes, half the bottle is in our refrigerator. I could tell it was a really good wine but it was a little too sweet for dinner.”; I started racking my brain trying to think if I had bought them a demi-sec. she gets the bottle to tell me what they’d opened and that’s when I learned that some how I had left a 96 Le Mont 1ere Trie at my parents’ house.

Well, at least she liked it. My mother had a good palate.
 
Thanks, Karen - I have a pile of 2002 Moelleux and 1er Trie that I haven't known what to do with. I have a hard time with sweet wines these days, for some reason. Your note helps me think about 'fooding' them with a more open mind.

I don't recall opening wrong bottles by mistake, but when my spouse used to become irritated with me, at times, she would reach into the storage area without looking and open whatever came to hand, which had a similar effect.

Irritated with me!? Yes, I know ... go figure ...
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Thanks, Karen - I have a pile of 2002 Moelleux and 1er Trie that I haven't known what to do with. I have a hard time with sweet wines these days, for some reason. Your note helps me think about 'fooding' them with a more open mind.

I don't recall opening wrong bottles by mistake, but when my spouse used to become irritated with me, at times, she would reach into the storage area without looking and open whatever came to hand, which had a similar effect.

Irritated with me!? Yes, I know ... go figure ...
Click to expand...

bear in mind that sweet wines shed sweetness--very slowly--over time, and those 2002s are nineteen years old. they may be becoming more to your liking.

many years ago i schlepped back 1954 huet moelleux (don't remember the vineyard) from harrod's wine department and offered it blind to the weekly wine drinking group that i belonged to. the guys nailed it to be chenin right away and figured it to be a demi-sec about 15 years old, when in fact it was a moelleux that was 42 years old.
 
These will go into the estate holdings, then - maybe I'll have grandchildren. However, I think there's gossip about Huet's 2002 corks, tho I don't know what the sensitivity of the sweet wines is.

I've been opening 2002 Coteaux de Loyen the past couple of years, and they are still way sweet for my preferences. OTOH, a 1998 Doisy-Vedrines last week was nearly perfect with good blue cheese and crackers. The Loire wines seem more sugary, tho - but maybe it's a question of vintage.
 
originally posted by robert ames:

bear in mind that sweet wines shed sweetness--very slowly--over time, and those 2002s are nineteen years old. they may be becoming more to your liking.
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How does the sugar 'shed'? I can see acidity lessening with time or tannins falling out, but where does the sugar go?

Last month I opened a 1989 Moelleux (Huet)... fabulous. Since I never had it upon release, I'm not sure how much sugar it might have had, but it tasted like an auslese to me at 32 years.
 
originally posted by MarkS:
originally posted by robert ames:

bear in mind that sweet wines shed sweetness--very slowly--over time, and those 2002s are nineteen years old. they may be becoming more to your liking.
Click to expand...

How does the sugar 'shed'? I can see acidity lessening with time or tannins falling out, but where does the sugar go?

Last month I opened a 1989 Moelleux (Huet)... fabulous. Since I never had it upon release, I'm not sure how much sugar it might have had, but it tasted like an auslese to me at 32 years.
Click to expand...

Very slowly, the sugars in wine undergo esterification reactions with the various acids (tartaric, malic, lactic) present in the wine. Those esterified sugars have no sweet taste.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by MarkS:
originally posted by robert ames:

bear in mind that sweet wines shed sweetness--very slowly--over time, and those 2002s are nineteen years old. they may be becoming more to your liking.
Click to expand...

How does the sugar 'shed'? I can see acidity lessening with time or tannins falling out, but where does the sugar go?

Last month I opened a 1989 Moelleux (Huet)... fabulous. Since I never had it upon release, I'm not sure how much sugar it might have had, but it tasted like an auslese to me at 32 years.
Click to expand...

Very slowly, the sugars in wine undergo esterification reactions with the various acids (tartaric, malic, lactic) present in the wine. Those esterified sugars have no sweet taste.

Mark Lipton
Click to expand...

Thanks, Mark. The wine chemistry discussions on this bored have been such an enrichment.
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by MarkS:
originally posted by robert ames:

bear in mind that sweet wines shed sweetness--very slowly--over time, and those 2002s are nineteen years old. they may be becoming more to your liking.
Click to expand...

How does the sugar 'shed'? I can see acidity lessening with time or tannins falling out, but where does the sugar go?

Last month I opened a 1989 Moelleux (Huet)... fabulous. Since I never had it upon release, I'm not sure how much sugar it might have had, but it tasted like an auslese to me at 32 years.
Click to expand...

Very slowly, the sugars in wine undergo esterification reactions with the various acids (tartaric, malic, lactic) present in the wine. Those esterified sugars have no sweet taste.

Mark Lipton
Click to expand...

Mark,

It is interesting to have participated (with my senses) in the process you describe so neatly, above.

Your explanation fits with my sensory perception of the qualities of this particular bottle of 1996. This bottle went through its changes in the bosom of a temp&humidity controlled cellar for 24+ years.

My ultimate perception was of a stony, loosening richness rather than sweetness, and of ripe fruit flavors falling gently into mineral, skeletal form without losing the shape of the fruit.
 
To expand on this point for the ultra-geeky (and, damn!, how I miss the tutelary presence of SFJoe to fact check me) because high acidity is required for the bacterial stability of sweet wines, the loss of acidity isn’t as readily felt as the loss of sweetness. The reaction in question, the acid-catalyzed esterification of carboxylic acids, is known as Fischer esterification after Emil Fischer, a towering figure in my field, on a par with Newton and Mendeleev in his impact. In the lab, we use temperature and other tricks to push the reaction to completion but wine demonstrates that time can accomplish the same trick.

Mark Lipton
 
Mark,

Can you discuss the relative importance and time frame in reducing perceived sweetness due to reactions of simple sugars by esterification, polymerization, and oligomerizaton?

I understood all three are going on. Dougherty explained to me that he thought the sugar reduction and texture of old Huet Vouvrays (50+ years old) was due to polymerization of sugars into chains we don’t perceive as sweet. It could be he was dumbing it down for a physics guy.
 
Jayson: as usual, Joe has thought more deeply about this than anyone else, myself included. That polymerization he spoke of would be a cross-reaction with the polyphenolics, again promoted by acid, resulting in the formation of non-hydrolyzable condensed tannins, which would both reduce astringency and sweetness. Oligomerization can be neglected as oligosaccharides degrade in acidic solution.

Jeff: depending on which reaction they undergo (see above) it might change the mouthfeel of the wine but less likely the flavor

Mark Lipton
(Your dutiful oenochemist at large)
 
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