Gonon pricing

originally posted by Karen Goetz:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
In that context "boats" means prices, not people, and while plenty of that is going on, the Gonon price escalation predates the money-printers going brrrrr.
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Yeah, got that and it inspired my perusal.... but that is interesting that Gonon price escalation started before the buzz saw of $printers....
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The N Rhone got the attention of the label chasers, and the attendant price hikes, starting at the turn of the millennium. First it was Chave, then Gentaz, then Verset, then Allemand, and latterly Gonon. Trollat retired too early to directly benefit. What sucks is that I used to buy all those wines (with the exception of Gentaz and Gonon) for $5-10 a bottle back in the ‘80s, either at the KL retail outlet at Hopkins and San Pablo or at Garnet in NYC.

Mark Lipton
(“Get off my damn lawn!”)
 
Excepting Allemand as well, as I believe the first commercially released vintage was 1989, which of course you would not have bought until the '90s.
 
Is Guigal in the Northern Rhône? I feel like their wines have gotten some attention over a number of years. What about Jamet, are they in the Northern Rhône?

Having visited Gonon, I can say that they are doing the work in the vineyards, and not relying on herbicides. Many in the area do rely on herbicides. You can’t really compare prices of the 80s, when herbicides were even more common, with the prices of today. It isn’t the same work.
 
So Mark talked about how inexpensively he got top Rhone wines in the 80s, with exceptions(one of which wasn't made then, Gonon). Michael chimed in with another top wine that wasn't made then, Allemand. Neither of them suggested that Jamet and Guigal weren't made then.

Herbicides use may have indeed made production less expensive, but I hardly think it is accountable alone or even mostly for the price hikes of Northern Rhones in the 90s and since.

And, in any case, Mark was playing the Geezer game of remembering when things cost nothing, children were obedient and life was good. One doesn't contradict such ravings with facts.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Is Guigal in the Northern Rhône? I feel like their wines have gotten some attention over a number of years. What about Jamet, are they in the Northern Rhône?
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Yes, their wines also used to be a lot less expensive than they are now.

Having visited Gonon, I can say that they are doing the work in the vineyards, and not relying on herbicides. Many in the area do rely on herbicides. You can’t really compare prices of the 80s, when herbicides were even more common, with the prices of today. It isn’t the same work.
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The wine is great, and their work shows. No one begrudges them the good earnings. I merely gawk that $30 in 2006 is worth about $40 today, which is what I paid for the 2006, 2010, and 2011 Gonon SJ (normale), and it's now $138.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Is Guigal in the Northern Rhône? I feel like their wines have gotten some attention over a number of years. What about Jamet, are they in the Northern Rhône?

Having visited Gonon, I can say that they are doing the work in the vineyards, and not relying on herbicides. Many in the area do rely on herbicides. You can’t really compare prices of the 80s, when herbicides were even more common, with the prices of today. It isn’t the same work.
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Guigal is sui generis as his price escalation started well before the region as a whole’s, as in early ‘90s. As a datum, when HDH started their auction business in ‘04 or thereabouts, the only N Rhone wines you’d see on offer were Guigal and maybe Chave. You’re of course correct that Jamet underwent the same price escalation, as did a number of other producers. I was myopically focused on the wines I used to buy, all KLWM imports.

And, yes, this is nostalgia for a bygone era of wine marketing in the US. There are, I’m sure, still people walking this planet who can recount the days when . DRC could be had for reasonable sums of money. While no spring chicken, I bought first growth Bordeaux in my youth for prices not far above those charged for CalCabs. I’m not bitter, though. I have enough wine at this point to get me through the next few decades, and producers such as Brezeme, Baudry and Steve E still make great wine that hasn’t been priced out of reach for me.

Mark Lipton
Oenogeezer extraordinaire
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Is Guigal in the Northern Rhône? I feel like their wines have gotten some attention over a number of years. What about Jamet, are they in the Northern Rhône?

Having visited Gonon, I can say that they are doing the work in the vineyards, and not relying on herbicides. Many in the area do rely on herbicides. You can’t really compare prices of the 80s, when herbicides were even more common, with the prices of today. It isn’t the same work.
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No one here begrudges the Gonons anything. Chambers St still sells the wines at reasonable, indeed consumer friendly, prices. So this escalation in happening in the States. I wish more of the extra money was going to the vignerons, but that’s an old story.
 
Let's be real here. Yes, there's inflation and some price increases on the producer end, but the folks in the three-tier schnook system know what's hot and what's not. Sometimes you pinch your margins and when you have a hot property with a lot of demand, you dramatically expand your margins. That's just the way it is and what's happening here.

As for Jamet, I blame Plotnicki. If folks here recall, twenty years ago he was buying as much of the '91 as he could find and pretty much single-handedly drove up the price past $150 at auction and it all snow-balled from there.
 
At work I get lots of spam through a work related distribution list. This Gonon related offer popped up in my mailbox this morning so thought to share as the vendor (La Bergere) is European based. No affiliation, etc. Cut and paste job of link, sorry.

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mailchi.mp
 
originally posted by Marc Hanes:
At work I get lots of spam through a work related distribution list. This Gonon related offer popped up in my mailbox this morning so thought to share as the vendor (La Bergere) is European based. No affiliation, etc. Cut and paste job of link, sorry.

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mailchi.mp
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And people say Europe is cheaper :)
 
Gonon ex cellar in France is cheaper than 95% of the decent artisan wines made in the US (30 euros). Despite the 10000 vines per ha, the steepness of vineyards and the cost of work (minimal legal wage is 18/h, no mexicans and organic certified for real).
 
Guigal, ironically, one of the Northern Rhones whose prices have NOT gone up in like two decades and which linger unsold on wine-searcher listings and in countless retailer emails begging people to take them for sticker price. I can't think of a single other tiny-production wine that routinely gets 96-100 pointgasms that falls in this category. It's almost like they are singularly unimpressive wines.
 
A similar and more-detailed take, though it comes to no conclusions: click

It seems to me like mere scarcity and points are not the full explanation for how the markets move. There is also buzz, or some call it 'halo'. The Bordelaise had a grip on wine commerce to the rest of the world since the 12th century; they strangled Gascony in its crib. The House of Valois, in 15th century Burgundy, similarly clobbered the Northern Rhone by forbidding the transport or sale of anything other than Burgundy wines. (These were the same folks who officially condemned gamay as treasonous.) The third biggie, Champagne, is famous for its relentless marketing of an unusual product.

Long ago, perhaps, but they have shaped the answer to the question, "What is a good wine?"
 
Eric - Are you offering evidence that organic certified in the U.S. is not 'for real?'

Is this a consensus view on the board? In the in-the-business community?
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Eric - Are you offering evidence that organic certified in the U.S. is not 'for real?'

Is this a consensus view on the board? In the in-the-business community?
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Perhaps he means that in any certification scheme, you need to rely on trust, and sometimes that trust is unwarranted? Trust is an easy thing to abuse.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Eric - Are you offering evidence that organic certified in the U.S. is not 'for real?'

Is this a consensus view on the board? In the in-the-business community?
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Yes, the consensus view is that US Organic certification isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
 
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Eric - Are you offering evidence that organic certified in the U.S. is not 'for real?'

Is this a consensus view on the board? In the in-the-business community?
Click to expand...

Yes, the consensus view is that US Organic certification isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
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And it’s expensive paper. I pay $2500 to certify my small business annually.

We wrestle with this a lot in our decision to certify and I’m a bit conflicted on this take. While I agree the standards are not particularly strong in the US, having been diluted by years of lobbying by large scale producers, it is a quantifiable standard. It should by no means be considered an indicator of quality, but it does set a baseline of practices if you know what the standards are. Fwiw for vegetable and grain exports we have reciprocity with European standards. Wine exports have several additional criterion they must meet to be accepted by Euro standards.

As with anything agriculture-related, there’s no substitute for having a personal relationship with the producer to know what their practices/philosophy are. I’ll be the last person to defend the supposed ecological sanctity of USDA Organic tag but I know what it means unlike shady undefined terms like “natural” or IPM or regenerative.

In the end it’s probably mostly virtue signaling for marketing purposes rather than anything substantive. I could be a shitty farmer and be certified organic, that’s for sure. It also does not take into account labor practices in any way.
 
Don’t get me started on the “non GMO project” cert though. My local store sells certified non-GMO hydrogen peroxide.
 
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Eric - Are you offering evidence that organic certified in the U.S. is not 'for real?'

Is this a consensus view on the board? In the in-the-business community?
Click to expand...

Yes, the consensus view is that US Organic certification isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
Click to expand...

That's a little depressing.

I can think of one or two community members here who might reasonably be considered 'artisanal' American vignerons. Would be interesting to hear their views - if they can express them without blowback from the certifying community, that is.

Completely, completely unrelated - indeed, from deep left field - Nathan, you've made no secret of your fondness for Roally Viré Clessé. Do have any off-the-cuff thoughts on how Guillemot-Michel's rendition measures up in comparison?
 
originally posted by Brian C:
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Eric - Are you offering evidence that organic certified in the U.S. is not 'for real?'

Is this a consensus view on the board? In the in-the-business community?
Click to expand...

Yes, the consensus view is that US Organic certification isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
Click to expand...

And it’s expensive paper. I pay $2500 to certify my small business annually.

We wrestle with this a lot in our decision to certify and I’m a bit conflicted on this take. While I agree the standards are not particularly strong in the US, having been diluted by years of lobbying by large scale producers, it is a quantifiable standard. It should by no means be considered an indicator of quality, but it does set a baseline of practices if you know what the standards are. Fwiw for vegetable and grain exports we have reciprocity with European standards. Wine exports have several additional criterion they must meet to be accepted by Euro standards.

As with anything agriculture-related, there’s no substitute for having a personal relationship with the producer to know what their practices/philosophy are. I’ll be the last person to defend the supposed ecological sanctity of USDA Organic tag but I know what it means unlike shady undefined terms like “natural” or IPM or regenerative.

In the end it’s probably mostly virtue signaling for marketing purposes rather than anything substantive. I could be a shitty farmer and be certified organic, that’s for sure. It also does not take into account labor practices in any way.
Click to expand...

Brian, has it been your experience that inspectors just look at the accounting books instead of testing the actual soil?
 
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