Gonon pricing

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Brian C:
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Eric - Are you offering evidence that organic certified in the U.S. is not 'for real?'

Is this a consensus view on the board? In the in-the-business community?
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Yes, the consensus view is that US Organic certification isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
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And it’s expensive paper. I pay $2500 to certify my small business annually.

We wrestle with this a lot in our decision to certify and I’m a bit conflicted on this take. While I agree the standards are not particularly strong in the US, having been diluted by years of lobbying by large scale producers, it is a quantifiable standard. It should by no means be considered an indicator of quality, but it does set a baseline of practices if you know what the standards are. Fwiw for vegetable and grain exports we have reciprocity with European standards. Wine exports have several additional criterion they must meet to be accepted by Euro standards.

As with anything agriculture-related, there’s no substitute for having a personal relationship with the producer to know what their practices/philosophy are. I’ll be the last person to defend the supposed ecological sanctity of USDA Organic tag but I know what it means unlike shady undefined terms like “natural” or IPM or regenerative.

In the end it’s probably mostly virtue signaling for marketing purposes rather than anything substantive. I could be a shitty farmer and be certified organic, that’s for sure. It also does not take into account labor practices in any way.
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Brian, has it been your experience that inspectors just look at the accounting books instead of testing the actual soil?
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We’ve had actual soil/plant material tests done twice in almost 20 years. That said, our operation is probably considered pretty low risk.
It’s mostly record keeping audits.
 
originally posted by Brian C:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Brian C:
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Eric - Are you offering evidence that organic certified in the U.S. is not 'for real?'

Is this a consensus view on the board? In the in-the-business community?
Click to expand...

Yes, the consensus view is that US Organic certification isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
Click to expand...

And it’s expensive paper. I pay $2500 to certify my small business annually.

We wrestle with this a lot in our decision to certify and I’m a bit conflicted on this take. While I agree the standards are not particularly strong in the US, having been diluted by years of lobbying by large scale producers, it is a quantifiable standard. It should by no means be considered an indicator of quality, but it does set a baseline of practices if you know what the standards are. Fwiw for vegetable and grain exports we have reciprocity with European standards. Wine exports have several additional criterion they must meet to be accepted by Euro standards.

As with anything agriculture-related, there’s no substitute for having a personal relationship with the producer to know what their practices/philosophy are. I’ll be the last person to defend the supposed ecological sanctity of USDA Organic tag but I know what it means unlike shady undefined terms like “natural” or IPM or regenerative.

In the end it’s probably mostly virtue signaling for marketing purposes rather than anything substantive. I could be a shitty farmer and be certified organic, that’s for sure. It also does not take into account labor practices in any way.
Click to expand...

Brian, has it been your experience that inspectors just look at the accounting books instead of testing the actual soil?
Click to expand...
We’ve had actual soil/plant material tests done twice in almost 20 years. That said, our operation is probably considered pretty low risk.
It’s mostly record keeping audits.
Click to expand...

Right, record-keeping is the means that supposedly (and notoriously) prevails, so that any under-the-table contravention can simply be kept off the books.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Eric - Are you offering evidence that organic certified in the U.S. is not 'for real?'

Is this a consensus view on the board? In the in-the-business community?
Click to expand...

Yes, the consensus view is that US Organic certification isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
Click to expand...

That's a little depressing.

I can think of one or two community members here who might reasonably be considered 'artisanal' American vignerons. Would be interesting to hear their views - if they can express them without blowback from the certifying community, that is.

Completely, completely unrelated - indeed, from deep left field - Nathan, you've made no secret of your fondness for Roally Viré Clessé. Do have any off-the-cuff thoughts on how Guillemot-Michel's rendition measures up in comparison?
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It's pretty par for the course that in the US that large agriculture concerns would be able to shape the laws to help them claim "organic" for marketing purposes. Just go to the grocery store and compare the price of "organic" milk to the regular. The milk we choose to use is not certified organic, but is from a local producer with reusable glass bottles. It also tastes better (according to my wife and kids, I drink milk maybe twice a year).

However, I'd pay more heed to Brian's words than mine as he actually may know what he's talking about.

I like Guillemot-Michel a lot, but it isn't exactly the same as Roally. There is something about the Thévenet touch that just works for me. Probably because I've been drinking the wines for 30 years.
 
I was sipping Guillemot-Michel (2016) when I wrote - and again now - and finding it very congenial. I'd like to compare it with the Roally, but can't find Roally's in any of the stores around here, whereas, in the distant past a couple used to carry it. It must be ten years since I've had a bottle. Pricing was quite reasonable, as I recall.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Eric - Are you offering evidence that organic certified in the U.S. is not 'for real?'

Is this a consensus view on the board? In the in-the-business community?
Click to expand...

Nope, I couldn't do this.

But I could't either name any cool and famous US winemaker selling for the same price ex cellar than the gonon, that shows a US organic certification on her/his label...
(Well Gonon, like me and most EU organic certified growers are not showing EU organic certification on US labels, but this is a different story)
 
originally posted by Brézème:
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Eric - Are you offering evidence that organic certified in the U.S. is not 'for real?'

Is this a consensus view on the board? In the in-the-business community?
Click to expand...

Nope, I couldn't do this.

But I could't either name any cool and famous US winemaker selling for the same price ex cellar than the gonon, that shows a US organic certification on her/his label...
(Well Gonon, like me and most EU organic certified growers are not showing EU organic certification on US labels, but this is a different story)
Click to expand...

I think you’re much more likely to find og cert in the US on wineries who use estate fruit. Since especially among the newer generation of vignerons in the US there is a business separation between grape growers and winemakers, there is much less incentive to certify as it becomes much more complicated. If my understanding is correct, there is not an USDA certified equivalent of “made with organic grapes” as there is in Europe, thus a negociant operation would be required to Certify as a handler/processor (similar to a coffee roaster etc) to use any og labeling statements. This is tedious enough if you deal with only certified organic sources, but if your sources for grapes are a mix of organic and not, it’s a real pain in the ass.
Is that different in Europe Eric, as you obviously work with multiple sources?
 
originally posted by Brian C:
This is tedious enough if you deal with only certified organic sources, but if your sources for grapes are a mix of organic and not, it’s a real pain in the ass.
Is that different in Europe Eric, as you obviously work with multiple sources?
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Common. It's not rocket science either...
I still work with 5 different sources of fruit, 2 being not organic (75% familly estate source though, 100% organic).
Believe me, I have to deal daily with more complex problems than this, starting with finding decend corks or dealing with french AOC organizations...
 
originally posted by Brézème:
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Eric - Are you offering evidence that organic certified in the U.S. is not 'for real?'

Is this a consensus view on the board? In the in-the-business community?
Click to expand...

Nope, I couldn't do this.

But I could't either name any cool and famous US winemaker selling for the same price ex cellar than the gonon, that shows a US organic certification on her/his label...
(Well Gonon, like me and most EU organic certified growers are not showing EU organic certification on US labels, but this is a different story)
Click to expand...

Well, VLM's response goes far in validating the statement, I feel.

To mind springs Edmund St. John - say, the Bone Jolly - but I don't know if it's organic. What about Florida Jim's wines? Sadly, they don't make it onto retail shelves here.

Organic or not, in general, I agree that value is better in European wines, even with tarrifs, three-tiers, etc., and that's why I buy them.

OTOH, I wouldn't mind at all being called out by some indignant American vignerons who could point me towards American wines within my budget that I'd enjoy as much. I would happily buy domestic if my palate and wallet were both on-board.
 
I would happily buy domestic if my palate and wallet were both on-board.
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I concur here and I think many others would as well. In terms of domestic production of any merit, things seem to have moved on to the "Tuesday night wine" being $25 to $30. (To be fair, many of my preferred European wines are galloping right along.) No one seemed to tell my boss that a "$15 a bottle" salary isn't cutting it anymore. And he ain't picking up the phone if someone calls to inform him.

But like so many others again, I just shift to whatever looks most appealing in the what I can afford category.

Affordability trumps quality/desirability and hence guides new release purchasing decisions. Insofar as I should even be buying wine, cf. Mssr. Miller.
 
originally posted by BJ:
Bow and Arrow - they're great!
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I don’t know those wines at all. And I should be sleeping. But that name has me thinking about other possible names for wineries:

Mortar and Pestle
Yin and Yang
Up and Down
North and South
Cops and Robbers
Make or Break
Long and Short
High and Low
In or Out
In and Out

Not to mention:
Dean and Jerry
Abbott and Costello
Laurel and Hardy
Fred and Ginger
Fred and Wilma
Fred and Velma

The possibilities along these lines are nearly endless. But sleep beckons.
 
A dry rose with a photo of Albert Einstein on the label... Pinky and The Brain.

Rename the bottle sizes (375ml = 22, 750ml = 38, 1.5l = 45)... Smith and Wesson.

Add trace amount of a neurotoxin... Search and Seizure.
 
This...just...keeps...getting...better.

I tell you what got better til the end tonite...last day of vacation...'13 Duplessis Clos.
 
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