Still More Cornas -- Clape Critics Invited

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
I'm trying to say that in a blind tasting of say 1995, I really doubt I could name the Aloxe and the Gevrey from the same producer..
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I'm sure you have more experience than me but I still find this hard to believe. Perhaps for 'low level' village wines I can see some sort of convergence at this point. And I might have been with you if you said 20+ years for many wines. But from my experience you still get plenty of distinctiveness at the 10-15 year mark for 'serious' premier and grand crus.

But please let's not try to define these terms too carefully..
 
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
...(the progression of the better 2000 N. Rhnes has not been like that of the better 2000 Burgundies)...
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What has been the progression of the 2000 Burgs? I still have a couple left, although I haven't tasted one in quite a while. I remember thinking that the good ones were excellent "restaurant wines", not being particularly dense or tannic but developing some nice complexity early on.
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They've come around better than originally foreseen. Still not the purest, most precise wines and not necessarily models of terroir (although that has begun to creep in), but very enjoyable.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
What's wrong with Clape? I have a 1997 magnum moldering in the basement - should I just open it now and use it as ink?
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Ouch! I know all the Clape vintages back to 1976, and 1997 is the only one I do not consider successful. When I showed up in October/November 1997 to taste 1996 and 1995, the 1997s had already finished their malos! Amazingly, the numbers (alcohol, acidity, etc.) for 1998 are identical to those for 1997, yet the wines are light years apart.
 
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

I'm trying to say that in a blind tasting of say 1995, I really doubt I could name the Aloxe and the Gevrey from the same producer. Or in many cases say anything more than "this is nice mature Medoc" when confronted with a 1990 classed growth from St.Julien vs. St.Estephe (unless it was from a producer with a very pronounced house style).
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I've seen it done often enough, and I've even done it myself on occasion. Not that I haven't been wrong, but I've also called wines that I've never had. Much older than 1990. It's hard to find another explanation.
 
I think Hermitage syrah is usually longer-lived than Cte Rtie or Cornas syrah. And, Ignacio - possibly the best comparison is not between 3 year-old and 20 year-old Clape, but between 10 year-old and 20 year-old Clape...
 
originally posted by mlawton:

Hey, I can disagree again! Expensive, certainly. But still cheaper than Allemand at what I see for US retail.
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Yes, but I love Allemand and Verset and like Voge and find Clape boring so the price differential is well worth it to me.
 
originally posted by Jay Miller:
originally posted by mlawton:

Hey, I can disagree again! Expensive, certainly. But still cheaper than Allemand at what I see for US retail.
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Yes, but I love Allemand and Verset and like Voge and find Clape boring so the price differential is well worth it to me.
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I guess that's sort of where I'm coming from. When you have Clape in a line-up with other top producers, it never seems to be as interesting.

That isn't to say it isn't good wine, it just isn't $80 good to me.
 
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

I'm trying to say that in a blind tasting of say 1995, I really doubt I could name the Aloxe and the Gevrey from the same producer. Or in many cases say anything more than "this is nice mature Medoc" when confronted with a 1990 classed growth from St.Julien vs. St.Estephe (unless it was from a producer with a very pronounced house style).
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Clearly you haven't done enough blind tasting with .sasha.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
I'm trying to say that in a blind tasting of say 1995, I really doubt I could name the Aloxe and the Gevrey from the same producer..
Click to expand...

I'm sure you have more experience than me but I still find this hard to believe. Perhaps for 'low level' village wines I can see some sort of convergence at this point. And I might have been with you if you said 20+ years for many wines. But from my experience you still get plenty of distinctiveness at the 10-15 year mark for 'serious' premier and grand crus.

But please let's not try to define these terms too carefully..
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I'm not sure I necessarily have more Burgundian experience than you. But I had a lot of experience with Bordeaux when I lived in NYC, and on numerous occasions during that period named the AOC and sometimes the producer in blind tastings. But it was nearly always with wines that were 4-8 years old. In contrast, at the few blind single-vintage Bordeaux tastings I have attended in the past few years, of older vintages (82, 83, 88 for example), I did not perceive strong differences between the AOCs and could only identify a wine when it had a particularly typical house style (Gruaud-Larose, Talbot, Pichon-Lalande are often easy to spot). I suspect it would be the same situation for me with Burgundy, within a given producer's portfolio.
 
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Jay Miller:
originally posted by mlawton:

Hey, I can disagree again! Expensive, certainly. But still cheaper than Allemand at what I see for US retail.
Click to expand...

Yes, but I love Allemand and Verset and like Voge and find Clape boring so the price differential is well worth it to me.
Click to expand...

I guess that's sort of where I'm coming from. When you have Clape in a line-up with other top producers, it never seems to be as interesting.

That isn't to say it isn't good wine, it just isn't $80 good to me.
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I just don't trust this kind of comparison. There are certain things you can learn from that kind of tasting, and my impression is that relative quality, in the context of normal consumption of any of the wines in question, is not one of them.
 
originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
I just don't trust this kind of comparison. There are certain things you can learn from that kind of tasting, and my impression is that relative quality, in the context of normal consumption of any of the wines in question, is not one of them.
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Isn't relative quality exactly what you do learn? You learn whether you prefer x to y. Although in normal consumption you might enjoy both.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
I just don't trust this kind of comparison. There are certain things you can learn from that kind of tasting, and my impression is that relative quality, in the context of normal consumption of any of the wines in question, is not one of them.
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Isn't relative quality exactly what you do learn? You learn whether you prefer x to y.
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Not for me.
You learn whether you prefer x when had with y or y when had with x.
And that is not the way I drink wine - I drink it with food.
Best, Jim
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
You learn whether you prefer x when had with y or y when had with x.

And that is not the way I drink wine - I drink it with food.
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Why can't you drink x and y together with food?

I'm not necessarily talking about a huge tasting with dozens of wines but I have found a handful of bottles with one meal (assuming there are enough people) to be a manageable amount and provide a useful real time comparison of x and y. Which is especially useful when x and y are from the same region and drinking them side by side brings out the nuances and particularities of each.

Although that doesn't mean you can't enjoy them alone as well.
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
I just don't trust this kind of comparison. There are certain things you can learn from that kind of tasting, and my impression is that relative quality, in the context of normal consumption of any of the wines in question, is not one of them.
Click to expand...

Isn't relative quality exactly what you do learn? You learn whether you prefer x to y.
Click to expand...

Not for me.
You learn whether you prefer x when had with y or y when had with x.
And that is not the way I drink wine - I drink it with food.
Best, Jim
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As you well know, if I there is no food, I drink gin or Scotch.

That being said, I have both longitudinal and cross-sectional data; hence, I have a lot of power to detect differences.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
You learn whether you prefer x when had with y or y when had with x.

And that is not the way I drink wine - I drink it with food.
Click to expand...

Why can't you drink x and y together with food?

I'm not necessarily talking about a huge tasting with dozens of wines but I have found a handful of bottles with one meal (assuming there are enough people) to be a manageable amount and provide a useful real time comparison of x and y. Which is especially useful when x and y are from the same region and drinking them side by side brings out the nuances and particularities of each.
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I agree. And even at those type dinners where many bottles are open, I usually end up with a glass of a couple similar wines to taste with the food and find that an interesting way to compare and learn something about the wines over the course of a dinner.

As far as Cornas, I fall into the Jay/vlm camp. Clape seems perfectly fine and, to be fair, I quit buying after the '99 vintage, but I'd certainly rather buy Allemand or scrounge around for decent bottles of Verset, and I also find some of Robert Michel's wines more interesting and was also intrigued by V. Paris' efforts in the tough 2002 vintage.
 
Clape has various bottlings, so it depends on whose you've been tasting. Certainly Verset is/was the most typical Cornas, but when one has done a substantial amount of Cornas tasting (as I have, visiting the village virtually every year for 23 years and cellaring a lot of Cornas each vintage), one understands why Clape has a strong claim on the best-in-Cornas mantle, whether one agrees with it or not. Allemand fans: Thierry has very high respect for Clape. Terroir fans: Clape has some unbeatable vineyards, especially now that the regular Cornas is a selection of the best terroirs.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Clape has various bottlings, so it depends on whose you've been tasting. Certainly Verset is/was the most typical Cornas, but when one has done a substantial amount of Cornas tasting (as I have, visiting the village virtually every year for 23 years and cellaring a lot of Cornas each vintage), one understands why Clape has a strong claim on the best-in-Cornas mantle, whether one agrees with it or not. Allemand fans: Thierry has very high respect for Clape. Terroir fans: Clape has some unbeatable vineyards, especially now that the regular Cornas is a selection of the best terroirs.
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Claude,
As for the "best-in-Cornas" label; well, I'll let others make such assessments.
But your whole hearted support of Clape gives me reason to seek out some more of his wines. So thanks for that.
Best, Jim
 
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