Still More Cornas -- Clape Critics Invited

originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
You learn whether you prefer x when had with y or y when had with x.

And that is not the way I drink wine - I drink it with food.

Why can't you drink x and y together with food?

I'm not necessarily talking about a huge tasting with dozens of wines but I have found a handful of bottles with one meal (assuming there are enough people) to be a manageable amount and provide a useful real time comparison of x and y. Which is especially useful when x and y are from the same region and drinking them side by side brings out the nuances and particularities of each.

Although that doesn't mean you can't enjoy them alone as well.

I'm misunderstood; I thought the tasting example given excluded food.

A "handful" is relative, I suppose. Personally, I begin to lose any reasonable acuity at about three different glasses in front of me. But then, if one is dining, acuity is really not the point.

Which gives rise to a certain catch-22; if one tastes without food, its all about comparisons and assessments. When one tastes with food, its all about enjoyment and comparing the wines really takes a back seat.
One of the reasons I find tasting comparisons and qualitative assessments somewhat hollow, regardless of context.
Best, Jim
 
I, too, assumed the group comparison tasting as being without food. If the context is with food, it changes everything, including (and especially) the comparative enjoyability of the wines.
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Clape has various bottlings, so it depends on whose you've been tasting. Certainly Verset is/was the most typical Cornas, but when one has done a substantial amount of Cornas tasting (as I have, visiting the village virtually every year for 23 years and cellaring a lot of Cornas each vintage), one understands why Clape has a strong claim on the best-in-Cornas mantle, whether one agrees with it or not. Allemand fans: Thierry has very high respect for Clape. Terroir fans: Clape has some unbeatable vineyards, especially now that the regular Cornas is a selection of the best terroirs.

Claude,
As for the "best-in-Cornas" label; well, I'll let others make such assessments.
But your whole hearted support of Clape gives me reason to seek out some more of his wines. So thanks for that.
Best, Jim
Note that I said a strong claim, not that it was indisputably best in Cornas. Also, prices have risen considerably in recent years. I can get Paris Granite 60 for about half the price of Clape, which is something to think about.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Ouch! I know all the Clape vintages back to 1976, and 1997 is the only one I do not consider successful. When I showed up in October/November 1997 to taste 1996 and 1995, the 1997s had already finished their malos! Amazingly, the numbers (alcohol, acidity, etc.) for 1998 are identical to those for 1997, yet the wines are light years apart.

"Light" being the operative word. It was about 88˚ in the San Fernando Valley today and after a meeting in an un- air conditioned mobile home (don't ask) it seemed like the wine locker wouldn't be the worst place to spend an hour or two. I was met by a friend who had some car parts I needed and I had some wine he needed and we did our part to further the cashless economy. But, I digress.

My locker is deeper than it is wide so I've gotta move a bunch of boxes to find anything, particularly because whichever bottle I'm looking for, it's invariably in the back and on the bottom of the locker (not to mention that it's never in the box that it's indicated as being in on my most recent inventory, which was collated c. 1999). While rearranging stuff I ran across a bottle of the 1997 Clape Cornas, so with Claude's not-so-ringing review still clanking around in my mind, and because we'd worked up a powerful thirst moving boxes around, and because my friend isn't particularly picky and he'd never tasted Northern Rhne wines other than from Delas Freres, and because whatever resale value the 1997 Clape Cornas might have had has been utterly destroyed by Claude's earlier notes in this topic, I snagged some glasses and poured it around for everyone else present who were also trying to find bottles in the back and on the bottom of their wine lockers (and who had worked up powerful thirsts).

The lockerists who were into Bordeaux and Burgundy liked the 1997, because it reminded them of Bordeaux and Burgundy, and besides, it was French. The people who were into California Rhne-ish wines thought it was light and wimpy but would be good for when their mother-in-law dropped by. I thought that it was nicely balanced, with very pure Syrah fruit flavors offset by slightly higher acidity than I would expect. I had the 1997 Verset recently and it was pretty dreadful, so bad that I'm assuming that it was a bad bottle. 1997 Allemand Chaillot was a big improvement but still no great shakes compared to other Allemand vintages, at least not over and above the fact that it was identifiably Cornas when tasted blind.

If one really focusses on it, the Clape too has that definite Cornas fire and brimstone thing happening to it on the nose when first opened. That's faded back into the wine, and now, some three hours later (I brought the remains of the bottle home), it's an okay bottle of Syrah, more interesting aromatically than on the palate (said palate consisting of vegetable soup and asphalt), and a wine that, tasted blind, could be pegged as probably being Cornas, but a case could be made that it might also be Crozes or maybe St Joseph or a bottle of Qupe Bien Nacido (not the Hillside Reserve). (BTW, to those of you diagramming along at home, my apologies for the structure of that last sentence).

In short, the 1997 Clape Cornas is not the vinous disaster hinted at above, but neither is it the bottle you want to pull out to taste when you're trying to convince someone that Old World Syrah is better than the crap they've been drinking. I don't begrudge the $40 or so I think I paid for it, but given the opportunity to rethink my purchase, I would probably should have blown the money on 1997 Baudry or Grange des Peres or something else that would have evolved into something at a higher plane of wine existence.

-Eden (we also opened the 1999 Ch de Trignon Gigondas, but it was - as Michael Butler would say - "corked like a wet dog")

BTW: Nice sunset tonight on the way home:
DSCN1031.jpg
 
And, of course, your palate, and preferences have, no doubt shifted since that bottle came into your possession, so the comment about Beaudry and Grange des Peres makes a lot of sense, at least to me.
And those people who were into Rhonish-California wines, those guys are in-fucking-sufferable (because, mostly, they don't seem to be able to distinguish the ones from the Rhone and the ones not, and it's making me cranky!)!
 
originally posted by Big Jim Cowan:
I'm misunderstood; I thought the tasting example given excluded food.

originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
I, too, assumed the group comparison tasting as being without food. If the context is with food, it changes everything, including (and especially) the comparative enjoyability of the wines.

You may not have been responding to me, but for my part making real and deep assessments of wine requires food. I think it is a fools game to do so otherwise. Wine and food are of a kind to me, inseparable. When tasting wine without food, I rarely compare, but rather judge a wine against track record or against a benchmark, if I've never had it before.
 
originally posted by VLM:
You may not have been responding to me, but for my part making real and deep assessments of wine requires food. I think it is a fools game to do so otherwise. Wine and food are of a kind to me, inseparable.

I think you are going too far here. What is 'food'?

Yes, wine is an important part of the dining experience but different foods change that experience so there is no one 'real' or 'deep' assessment.

How do you judge sweet wines. Must you always have some food to pair with the TBAs?

Furthermore, do you really only drink wine when eating? Nothing before the meal? And you immediately stop drinking wine once the meal is over?

Personally, I like it all. Before, during, and after. But maybe that's just me..
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by VLM:
You may not have been responding to me, but for my part making real and deep assessments of wine requires food. I think it is a fools game to do so otherwise. Wine and food are of a kind to me, inseparable.

I think you are going too far here. What is 'food'?

For us omnivores, this is pretty self-explanatory.

Yes, wine is an important part of the dining experience but different foods change that experience so there is no one 'real' or 'deep' assessment.

I think it is impossible to have a deep experience with wine that is de-contextualized from food. But I'm not very post-modern.

How do you judge sweet wines. Must you always have some food to pair with the TBAs?

Good question and the answer is I mostly don't. I might own 2-3 bottles of (desert) sweet wine and maybe 12 bottles of port.

Furthermore, do you really only drink wine when eating? Nothing before the meal? And you immediately stop drinking wine once the meal is over?

I will generally have a cocktail before a meal if dining out but may drink wine when cooking at home. After a meal I may finish whatever we had with dinner, but more likely, I'll drink Scotch. Got created Scotch as the kryptonite of my people. If only I had the Staff of Ra.
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
One of the reasons I find tasting comparisons and qualitative assessments somewhat hollow, regardless of context.
Best, Jim

All qualitative assessments are hollow?
 
originally posted by Bwood:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
One of the reasons I find tasting comparisons and qualitative assessments somewhat hollow, regardless of context.
Best, Jim

All qualitative assessments are hollow?

Jim has recently joined the Nihilists of Wine group on Facebook.
 
originally posted by VLM:
I think it is impossible to have a deep experience with wine that is de-contextualized from food. But I'm not very post-modern.

No, you're not post-modern. You're very Ancien Rgime with all your rules and strictures!

I agree that food is an important part of enjoying wine but I just can't see limiting myself to that. There are all sorts of ways to have deep experiences. And even if you are at dinner, one doesn't necessarily take a bite of food for each sip of wine. At least I don't.

And when you have a very special bottle at dinner, do you mean to tell me you have never taken a moment to clear your palate and taste the wine without the garlic tomato sauce sloshing around your mouth? Have those moments never moved you? Or are you saying that such a moment is 'less deep' than when mingling with the food. I don't see those boundaries. But...

I will generally have a cocktail before a meal if dining out but may drink wine when cooking at home. After a meal I may finish whatever we had with dinner, but more likely, I'll drink Scotch.

Wow. Well, good for you. I guess.
 
I wouldn't go as far as "impossible," but I think the assessment of wine as something inherently decoupled from food, and instead coupled with other (often many other) wines, is at the root of most modern evaluative badness.

To Rahsaan's point: if the wine doesn't go with food, then it doesn't. But really, what percentage of an average year's drinking is comprised of TBAs?
 
I should clarify: I did not mean that the 1997 Clape was undrinkable (at least on release - we're now 11+ years down the road, and also, undrinkable is a rather low standard, but one that many wines nevertheless don't achieve), just that is was the only Clape I've ever had that was not interesting and that I had no desire to have again. When you consider that includes years such as 1977, 1981, 1992, 1993, 2002, etc., that is saying something, both about 1997 and about the rest. (I have the 2008 to look forward to on my next visit.)
 
originally posted by Thor:
what percentage of an average year's drinking is comprised of TBAs?

For me, the percentage is always smaller than I would like it to be.

But the point is well taken.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by VLM:
I think it is impossible to have a deep experience with wine that is de-contextualized from food. But I'm not very post-modern.

No, you're not post-modern. You're very Ancien Rgime with all your rules and strictures!

I agree that food is an important part of enjoying wine but I just can't see limiting myself to that. There are all sorts of ways to have deep experiences. And even if you are at dinner, one doesn't necessarily take a bite of food for each sip of wine. At least I don't.

And when you have a very special bottle at dinner, do you mean to tell me you have never taken a moment to clear your palate and taste the wine without the garlic tomato sauce sloshing around your mouth? Have those moments never moved you? Or are you saying that such a moment is 'less deep' than when mingling with the food. I don't see those boundaries. But...

This sort of flexible, commonsense approach will get you nowhere in the world of wine absolutists.
 
originally posted by Chris Coad:
originally posted by Bwood:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
One of the reasons I find tasting comparisons and qualitative assessments somewhat hollow, regardless of context.
Best, Jim

All qualitative assessments are hollow?

Jim has recently joined the Nihilists of Wine group on Facebook.

I was recently a guest of Jim and saw no evidence of German techno-pop or marmots in his home, so I am going to bet against the Nihilist theory.
 
originally posted by Thor:
I wouldn't go as far as "impossible," but I think the assessment of wine as something inherently decoupled from food, and instead coupled with other (often many other) wines, is at the root of most modern evaluative badness.

I don't mean to single you out here, Thor, but this idea that food is integral to wine tasting I find strained at best -- and I almost never consume wine without food. Especially technical tasting is rarely done with food (can you picture the vigneron hunkered down in the cave, noshing on a knish as puts together this year's assemblage?) For my part, when I attend large-scale tastings I will use food periodically to maintain sobriety and refresh the palate, but the rest of the time I'm sipping, spitting and scribbling with nary a morsel passing my lips. And I don't feel particularly hampered by that lack of food/wine harmony, though I often do a mental calculus of what sort of food a particular wine would be suited for.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by Thor:
I wouldn't go as far as "impossible," but I think the assessment of wine as something inherently decoupled from food, and instead coupled with other (often many other) wines, is at the root of most modern evaluative badness.
I disagree. The root of it is the belief that it can be explained in very few words to others who have not done similar work.
 
originally posted by Bwood:
originally posted by Chris Coad:
originally posted by Bwood:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
One of the reasons I find tasting comparisons and qualitative assessments somewhat hollow, regardless of context.
Best, Jim

All qualitative assessments are hollow?

Jim has recently joined the Nihilists of Wine group on Facebook.

I was recently a guest of Jim and saw no evidence of German techno-pop or marmots in his home, so I am going to bet against the Nihilist theory.

It's all hollow, baby, no matter which way you slice it.

Touch my marmot! TOUCH IT!

And now, this is the time on Wein Disorder ven ve dance...
 
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