CWD: What did you drink last night (or whenever)?

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by mark e:
I think Geyserville was less oaky once upon a time, but like you, I have become more and more oak adverse.

don't know to what extent any of this is applicable on the west coast in recent decades.
is it possible that the wood treatment has been invariant but other factors - pH, dry extract - have not? Perception of wood could have changed then.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by mark e:
I think Geyserville was less oaky once upon a time, but like you, I have become more and more oak adverse.

don't know to what extent any of this is applicable on the west coast in recent decades.
is it possible that the wood treatment has been invariant but other factors - pH, dry extract - have not? Perception of wood could have changed then.

Here is some data from Ridge on the 2020 Geyserville:

TA: 6.05 g/L

pH: 3.72

Barrels: 100% air-dried American oak barrels (20% new, 15% one year-old, 20% two years-old, 25% three years-old, 15% four years-old and 5% five years-old).

Aging: Thirteen months in barrel.

The pH is not low, but I might guess that over time it has gone up. That is a lot of wood influence to be sure. So the interesting question would be how pH influences perception of wood. I don't know but might guess only that in higher acid vintages the wine might seem "harder" with the same wood regimen.

 

[Jayson Cohen]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by mark e:
I think Geyserville was less oaky once upon a time, but like you, I have become more and more oak adverse.

don't know to what extent any of this is applicable on the west coast in recent decades.
is it possible that the wood treatment has been invariant but other factors - pH, dry extract - have not? Perception of wood could have changed then.

Here is some data from Ridge on the 2020 Geyserville:

TA: 6.05 g/L

pH: 3.72

Barrels: 100% air-dried American oak barrels (20% new, 15% one year-old, 20% two years-old, 25% three years-old, 15% four years-old and 5% five years-old).

Aging: Thirteen months in barrel.

The pH is not low, but I might guess that over time it has gone up. That is a lot of wood influence to be sure. So the interesting question would be how pH influences perception of wood. I don't know but might guess only that in higher acid vintages the wine might seem "harder" with the same wood regimen.

Yeah. This also doesn’t tell us about toast levels.

Maybe the new team will experiment? I’d love to see a comparison of whatever they’ve been doing to a couple barrels of wine done in older wood barrels only.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by mark e:
I think Geyserville was less oaky once upon a time, but like you, I have become more and more oak adverse.

don't know to what extent any of this is applicable on the west coast in recent decades.
is it possible that the wood treatment has been invariant but other factors - pH, dry extract - have not? Perception of wood could have changed then.

Here is some data from Ridge on the 2020 Geyserville:

TA: 6.05 g/L

pH: 3.72

Barrels: 100% air-dried American oak barrels (20% new, 15% one year-old, 20% two years-old, 25% three years-old, 15% four years-old and 5% five years-old).

Aging: Thirteen months in barrel.

The pH is not low, but I might guess that over time it has gone up. That is a lot of wood influence to be sure. So the interesting question would be how pH influences perception of wood. I don't know but might guess only that in higher acid vintages the wine might seem "harder" with the same wood regimen.

Yeah. This also doesn’t tell us about toast levels.

Maybe the new team will experiment? I’d love to see a comparison of whatever they’ve been doing to a couple of barrels of wine done in older wood barrels only.

It does not say anything about toast levels, nor that - in the past - Ridge required that the American oak used in their barrels was seasoned for longer than was commonly done.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Yeah, I had the 18 Geyserville and it will be the last Ridge Zin I drink, I expect. I don't know if the wood treatment was enhanced or my oak averseness has increased, but, whereas I used to tolerate the Draper perfume on the basis, that that was part of what their Zin was. Now, I'd rather find other Zins that are unoaked.

I think Geyserville was less oaky once upon a time, but like you, I have become more and more oak adverse. I have been lucky enough to taste and drink many Ridge wines and enjoyed engaging conversations with Paul Draper at the winery. Zinfandel from Picchetti was one of my favorites, though often - even then - too high in acidity for most people. SFJoe used to kid me about how much I loved it. Unlike you, I would simply rather not find zinfandels, a grape I have grown weary of, and would rather drink low-alcohol old-world reds. À Chacun and all that.

If you ever get a chance (I'm not sure exactly how, maybe we'll come to Norway sometime), try Kenny's Zinfandel from Branham in the Rockpile AVA. Regularly under 13% and I've never seen one higher than 13.5%.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Yeah, I had the 18 Geyserville and it will be the last Ridge Zin I drink, I expect. I don't know if the wood treatment was enhanced or my oak averseness has increased, but, whereas I used to tolerate the Draper perfume on the basis, that that was part of what their Zin was. Now, I'd rather find other Zins that are unoaked.

I think Geyserville was less oaky once upon a time, but like you, I have become more and more oak adverse. I have been lucky enough to taste and drink many Ridge wines and enjoyed engaging conversations with Paul Draper at the winery. Zinfandel from Picchetti was one of my favorites, though often - even then - too high in acidity for most people. SFJoe used to kid me about how much I loved it. Unlike you, I would simply rather not find zinfandels, a grape I have grown weary of, and would rather drink low-alcohol old-world reds. À Chacun and all that.

If you ever get a chance (I'm not sure exactly how, maybe we'll come to Norway sometime), try Kenny's Zinfandel from Branham in the Rockpile AVA. Regularly under 13% and I've never seen one higher than 13.5%.

Thanks much for that info. Ghostwriter is imported so I will look for it. I found Martha Stoumen and Broc zinfandels were both around 12%, but they cost around $40 per bottle.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Peter Creasey:

Zins are widely thought to go well with each of these four items...

...then butterfingers

There is a wide consensus on what goes well with that candy bar? You must hang in very different circles.

Well, as long as we are in that mode, I once had a Maryland Traminette that was a terrific pairing with kettle corn. Butterfingers I'm having a hard time wrapping my mental palate around. Amarula?

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by mark e:
I think Geyserville was less oaky once upon a time, but like you, I have become more and more oak adverse.

don't know to what extent any of this is applicable on the west coast in recent decades.
is it possible that the wood treatment has been invariant but other factors - pH, dry extract - have not? Perception of wood could have changed then.

Here is some data from Ridge on the 2020 Geyserville:

TA: 6.05 g/L

pH: 3.72

Barrels: 100% air-dried American oak barrels (20% new, 15% one year-old, 20% two years-old, 25% three years-old, 15% four years-old and 5% five years-old).

Aging: Thirteen months in barrel.

The pH is not low, but I might guess that over time it has gone up. That is a lot of wood influence to be sure. So the interesting question would be how pH influences perception of wood. I don't know but might guess only that in higher acid vintages the wine might seem "harder" with the same wood regimen.

Yeah. This also doesn’t tell us about toast levels.

Maybe the new team will experiment? I’d love to see a comparison of whatever they’ve been doing to a couple of barrels of wine done in older wood barrels only.

It does not say anything about toast levels, nor that - in the past - Ridge required that the American oak used in their barrels was seasoned for longer than was commonly done.

That (seasoning time) was an important difference, back in the day. Dunno if it is these days, so much more customization and options on the barrel front.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Yeah, I had the 18 Geyserville and it will be the last Ridge Zin I drink, I expect. I don't know if the wood treatment was enhanced or my oak averseness has increased, but, whereas I used to tolerate the Draper perfume on the basis, that that was part of what their Zin was. Now, I'd rather find other Zins that are unoaked.

I think Geyserville was less oaky once upon a time, but like you, I have become more and more oak adverse. I have been lucky enough to taste and drink many Ridge wines and enjoyed engaging conversations with Paul Draper at the winery. Zinfandel from Picchetti was one of my favorites, though often - even then - too high in acidity for most people. SFJoe used to kid me about how much I loved it. Unlike you, I would simply rather not find zinfandels, a grape I have grown weary of, and would rather drink low-alcohol old-world reds. À Chacun and all that.

Zins are like John Wayne. In the right hands--John Ford, Howard Hawkes--he is a surprisingly good actor, whose physical grace, even beneath a growing gut and lumbering gait, becomes visible again. Left to himself, he is a risible self parody.

Sort of agree. But on the other hand, if not overoaked, or too long a hangtime, or perhaps not overly picky on the sorting table, I think Zin is an excellent conduit of various CA terroirs. With those caveats, I find pretty consistent similarities within - and differences between - Dry Creek, Napa mountains, Lodi, Foothills, Paso inland, Alexander Valley, etc. Zins.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by Peter Creasey:

Zins are widely thought to go well with each of these four items...

barbecue beef ribs, spicy green beans, and fresh heirloom tomatoes...then butterfingers

Inquiring mind -- what wine(s) (not beer) might you guys prefer to go with this dinner? Maybe Petite Sirah?

. . . . . Pete

I find that a significant level of capsicum heat diminishes my enjoyment of any wine. If the heat on the green beans is modest, or comes from something else like Sichuan "pepper" or wasabi or ginger, then Oloroso sherry (particularly good with many non-too-spicy BBQ sauces); a very hearty rose'; Banyuls (if hoisin sauce is involved somewhere). Some orange wines? VT Pinot Gris from Alsace? Very ripe Carmenere? Zin's not a bad choice, although the bigger ones will do the fresh tomatoes no good. Ditto the PS, although could be good with the ribs and (if the spice is mainly peppercorns or Sichuan pepper) the green beans. All IMHO of course.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Yeah, I had the 18 Geyserville and it will be the last Ridge Zin I drink, I expect. I don't know if the wood treatment was enhanced or my oak averseness has increased, but, whereas I used to tolerate the Draper perfume on the basis, that that was part of what their Zin was. Now, I'd rather find other Zins that are unoaked.

I think Geyserville was less oaky once upon a time, but like you, I have become more and more oak adverse. I have been lucky enough to taste and drink many Ridge wines and enjoyed engaging conversations with Paul Draper at the winery. Zinfandel from Picchetti was one of my favorites, though often - even then - too high in acidity for most people. SFJoe used to kid me about how much I loved it. Unlike you, I would simply rather not find zinfandels, a grape I have grown weary of, and would rather drink low-alcohol old-world reds. À Chacun and all that.

Zins are like John Wayne. In the right hands--John Ford, Howard Hawkes--he is a surprisingly good actor, whose physical grace, even beneath a growing gut and lumbering gait, becomes visible again. Left to himself, he is a risible self parody.

Sort of agree. But on the other hand, if not overoaked, or too long a hangtime, or perhaps not overly picky on the sorting table, I think Zin is an excellent conduit of various CA terroirs. With those caveats, I find pretty consistent similarities within - and differences between - Dry Creek, Napa mountains, Lodi, Foothills, Paso inland, Alexander Valley, etc. Zins.

That's what being in the right hands means.

 

[Peter Creasey]

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM): Oloroso sherry (particularly good with many non-too-spicy BBQ sauces); a very hearty rose'; Banyuls (if hoisin sauce is involved somewhere). Some orange wines? VT Pinot Gris from Alsace? Very ripe Carmenere? Zin's not a bad choice, although the bigger ones will do the fresh tomatoes no good. Ditto the PS, although could be good with the ribs and (if the spice is mainly peppercorns or Sichuan pepper) the green beans. All IMHO of course.

Christian, thanks ... interesting summary comments.

Especially your citing of Banyuls. I like Banyuls but hadn't thought of it in this case. I tend to think Banyuls as a good accompaniment for chocolate. Also, I like Zins with chocolate and feel they one of the few choices to go with tomatoes.

. . . . . . Pete

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Peter Creasey:

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM): Oloroso sherry (particularly good with many non-too-spicy BBQ sauces); a very hearty rose'; Banyuls (if hoisin sauce is involved somewhere). Some orange wines? VT Pinot Gris from Alsace? Very ripe Carmenere? Zin's not a bad choice, although the bigger ones will do the fresh tomatoes no good. Ditto the PS, although could be good with the ribs and (if the spice is mainly peppercorns or Sichuan pepper) the green beans. All IMHO of course.

(Zin) one of the few choices to go with tomatoes.

Poppycock! With fresh tomatoes, one of the worst wines you could pick, but with tomato in sauces I'd say low tannin, high-acid wines work best (e.g, sangiovese, barbera and frappato, among others - if you absolutely must have a new world wine, try an unoaked cinsault from South Africa).

 

[robert ames]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Peter Creasey:

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM): Oloroso sherry (particularly good with many non-too-spicy BBQ sauces); a very hearty rose'; Banyuls (if hoisin sauce is involved somewhere). Some orange wines? VT Pinot Gris from Alsace? Very ripe Carmenere? Zin's not a bad choice, although the bigger ones will do the fresh tomatoes no good. Ditto the PS, although could be good with the ribs and (if the spice is mainly peppercorns or Sichuan pepper) the green beans. All IMHO of course.

(Zin) one of the few choices to go with tomatoes.

Poppycock! With fresh tomatoes, one of the worst wines you could pick, but with tomato in sauces I'd say low tannin, high-acid wines work best (e.g, sangiovese, barbera and frappato, among others - if you absolutely must have a new world wine, try an unoaked cinsault from South Africa).

many years ago back when they were 'affordable', i was drinking a dauvissat 1er cru forest chablis while slicing up a bunch of vine ripened farm raised tomatoes and after taking a few bites of the tomato had a eureka moment when i realised that they chablis and the tomatoes were singing to each other--very harmoniously.

it's a pairing that enjoy every summer.

 

[Florida Jim]

Robert,
No Dauvissat in my house but I do have Michel, Foret, and some beautiful heirloom tomatoes that were grown about a mile from here. And I’ve always enjoyed dinner and a “show.”
‘Will let you know . . .
Best, Jim

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

one of the best pairings, ever:
a heart-shaped market-sourced tomato (forget the exact variety) from Azerbaijan, with sea salt from Noirmoutier, served (in 2008) with 2005 Les Bournais Francois Chidaine.

 

[Peter Creasey]

Following up on prior comments about Pets, I decided to remind myself about how they go with tomatoes. The Santa Cruz Mountain Vineyard San Antonio Valley Pierce Ranch Petite Sirah '12 worked well with the fresh tomatoes...and also the dark chocolate (whisper - Butterfingers).

Ken always used to call these wines Durif after the founder of the variety. I don't recall why he switched to Petite Sirah.

. . . . . . Pete

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Peter Creasey:

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM): Oloroso sherry (particularly good with many non-too-spicy BBQ sauces); a very hearty rose'; Banyuls (if hoisin sauce is involved somewhere). Some orange wines? VT Pinot Gris from Alsace? Very ripe Carmenere? Zin's not a bad choice, although the bigger ones will do the fresh tomatoes no good. Ditto the PS, although could be good with the ribs and (if the spice is mainly peppercorns or Sichuan pepper) the green beans. All IMHO of course.

(Zin) one of the few choices to go with tomatoes.

Poppycock! With fresh tomatoes, one of the worst wines you could pick, but with tomato in sauces I'd say low tannin, high-acid wines work best (e.g, sangiovese, barbera and frappato, among others - if you absolutely must have a new world wine, try an unoaked cinsault from South Africa).

One of the worst wines for fresh tomatoes? I dunno; austere dry high-acid young Riesling with fresh tomatoes in vinaigrette is one of the screechiest combos I've ever had. For completely different reasons, I suspect fat oaky Chard would be pretty grim. Agree, there's something magic about Barbera and tomato.

 

[robert ames]

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Peter Creasey:

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM): Oloroso sherry (particularly good with many non-too-spicy BBQ sauces); a very hearty rose'; Banyuls (if hoisin sauce is involved somewhere). Some orange wines? VT Pinot Gris from Alsace? Very ripe Carmenere? Zin's not a bad choice, although the bigger ones will do the fresh tomatoes no good. Ditto the PS, although could be good with the ribs and (if the spice is mainly peppercorns or Sichuan pepper) the green beans. All IMHO of course.

(Zin) one of the few choices to go with tomatoes.

Poppycock! With fresh tomatoes, one of the worst wines you could pick, but with tomato in sauces I'd say low tannin, high-acid wines work best (e.g, sangiovese, barbera and frappato, among others - if you absolutely must have a new world wine, try an unoaked cinsault from South Africa).

One of the worst wines for fresh tomatoes? I dunno; austere dry high-acid young Riesling with fresh tomatoes in vinaigrette is one of the screechiest combos I've ever had. For completely different reasons, I suspect fat oaky Chard would be pretty grim. Agree, there's something magic about Barbera and tomato.

my guess is that the vinaigrette was the culprit.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by robert ames:

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Peter Creasey:

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM): Oloroso sherry (particularly good with many non-too-spicy BBQ sauces); a very hearty rose'; Banyuls (if hoisin sauce is involved somewhere). Some orange wines? VT Pinot Gris from Alsace? Very ripe Carmenere? Zin's not a bad choice, although the bigger ones will do the fresh tomatoes no good. Ditto the PS, although could be good with the ribs and (if the spice is mainly peppercorns or Sichuan pepper) the green beans. All IMHO of course.

(Zin) one of the few choices to go with tomatoes.

Poppycock! With fresh tomatoes, one of the worst wines you could pick, but with tomato in sauces I'd say low tannin, high-acid wines work best (e.g, sangiovese, barbera and frappato, among others - if you absolutely must have a new world wine, try an unoaked cinsault from South Africa).

One of the worst wines for fresh tomatoes? I dunno; austere dry high-acid young Riesling with fresh tomatoes in vinaigrette is one of the screechiest combos I've ever had. For completely different reasons, I suspect fat oaky Chard would be pretty grim. Agree, there's something magic about Barbera and tomato.

my guess is that the vinaigrette was the culprit.

Mine, too. I never said anything about a dressing. So often it is the sauce and/or dressing that dictates the pairing, rather than the underlying ingredient(s).