CWD: What did you drink last night (or whenever)?

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
So the question now is, does anyone know white wines made from other grapes that undergo malolactic and taste buttery.

Yes. I have had a few German rieslings that went through malo with some buttery character. It is pretty uncommon, though.

That's enough to at least weaken Oswaldo's theory. How many Germans rieslings see any malo, though, I wonder. If Oswaldo can find a Chardonnay that he knows not to have gone through Malo and still tastes buttery, though, that surely would indicate that something about the grape might be at play. For obvious reasons, the tasters to whom it does or does not taste buttery could not be either Oswaldo or me.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
So the question now is, does anyone know white wines made from other grapes that undergo malolactic and taste buttery.

Yes. I have had a few German rieslings that went through malo with some buttery character. It is pretty uncommon, though.

That's enough to at least weaken Oswaldo's theory. How many Germans rieslings see any malo, though, I wonder. If Oswaldo can find a Chardonnay that he knows not to have gone through Malo and still tastes buttery, though, that surely would indicate that something about the grape might be at play. For obvious reasons, the tasters to whom it does or does not taste buttery could not be either Oswaldo or me.

I remember Jo Pithon saying that old vine Chenin produces less malic so that wines made from such grapes may not undergo malo (essentially because there's not enough food for the bacteria). I have some bottles of 2014 Valette Macon-Chaintré Vieilles Vignes and the two notes I have (from 2020 and 2021) mention thickness but not butteriness. Even though I am one of the two proscribed tasters, I will try to open another one this weekend and pay special attention to the butteriness content. If I don't find any, it will be another point in favor of the malo camp.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

There must be some MWs reading here who can opine on this?

 

[Jeff Grossman]

I've spent the past hour reading around teh Intertubez, including the link provided by Oswaldo -- which pops right up as Google's #1 hit for "does Chablis go through malolactic fermentation?" -- and there is no consensus. On anything. It's all too complicated and localized. (I'd like a wine high in NSAIDs about now.)

Here's some of what I found:
-- Neutral oak is often used in Chablis to soften the wine a bit, but typically only for GC and the occasional 1er wine.
-- About 2/3 of sources say that MLF is common in Chablis but that the wines are so acidic in the first place that you don't notice. (=> Not sure I'm buying this: wouldn't it be easy to do a chemical assay? Either there's a bunch of lactic acid present or there isn't.)
-- Loire whites generally go through MLF but not in Vouvray.
-- Burgundy whites generally go through MLF.

But the MLF process does not just convert malic acid to lactic acid. It also produces Diacetyl and other flavoral and textural compounds. This is why MLF is nearly universal in red wine - for the creamy feel.

And MLF is not just MLF because there are different strains of O. oeni, the culprit bacterium, some of which produce more and some of which produce less Diacetyl.

And MLF is not just MLF because it matters whether it occurs simultaneous with the alcoholic fermentation, as O. oeni can convert sugar to undesirable outputs (VA, the 'mousey' stink, or over-produce Diacetyl).

And MLF is not just MLF because 'natural' winemakers tend to let wild strains of O. oeni do the work while many people buy GMO O. oeni to control the output a little better.

And, as was already said, MLF does not always happen if the wine is low in malic acid in the first place (e.g., carbonic maceration Beaujolais) or the winemaker does something to sterilize (e.g., add neutral spirits to make Port).

There. No clarity whatsoever.

For two science-y reads, try this and that.
For a long text read, this.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

Thanks, that's useful, despite the static.

I also wonder: assuming red and white grapes have similar malic content, do most or nearly all reds undergo malo simply because, with them, it isn't blocked, regardless of cellar temperature?

Because there's a lot of blocking going on in whites, and cold cellars seem to be the dominant attempt to paint this as non-interventionist (for the beleaguered minority who care).

 

[Marc D]

Oswaldo,
I am guessing here but I suspect that the bacteria that a producer chooses to use to start the malolactic fermentation will determine the amount of Diacetyl and buttery flavors produced in the wine. Just like the yeast used in alcoholic fermentation, the byproducts of bacteria used in malolactic fermentation have different chemicals produced and lead to differences in perceived aroma and flavor. I think Jeff mentions the same thing in his post, different strains of O. oeni produce varying amounts of diacetyl.

This is from comments I read from Brad Baker regarding champagne fermentation. He mentioned that the bacteria recipe used by Champagne producers when they inoculate to start malolactic fermentation is markedly different from the recipe used by a producer making a buttery Chardonnay. Also the starting amounts of malolactic acids in the grapes will likely have an effect on how much diacetyl is produced.

This is a very fascinating subject for me. After reading that one of the primary ways to block malolactic fermentation is to add sulfites, maybe this is why you have an aversion to wines that are done with blocked malo?

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Thanks, that's useful, despite the static.

Glad to hear that somebody somewhere is happy with MLF.

I also wonder: assuming red and white grapes have similar malic content, do most or nearly all reds undergo malo simply because, with them, it isn't blocked, regardless of cellar temperature?

Because there's a lot of blocking going on in whites, and cold cellars seem to be the dominant attempt to paint this as non-interventionist (for the beleaguered minority who care).

Most articles mentioned that winemaker choice matters: if s/he plans to make a fruity/acidic wine than MLF should be blocked, all other things being equal (...which they are not, because wines that go through MLF are more stable in the bottle than wines that don't; also, wines that go through MLF have more mouthfeel which might be another thing the winemaker wants).

Lots of sources mention that almost all reds go through MLF for the sake of that extra mouthfeel, and that any un-tasty exudate is likely to be covered-up by other stronger flavors (a luxury not available in white wines).

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Marc D:
Oswaldo,
I am guessing here but I suspect that the bacteria that a producer chooses to use to start the malolactic fermentation will determine the amount of Diacetyl and buttery flavors produced in the wine. Just like the yeast used in alcoholic fermentation, the byproducts of bacteria used in malolactic fermentation have different chemicals produced and lead to differences in perceived aroma and flavor. I think Jeff mentions the same thing in his post, different strains of O. oeni produce varying amounts of diacetyl.

This is from comments I read from Brad Baker regarding champagne fermentation. He mentioned that the bacteria recipe used by Champagne producers when they inoculate to start malolactic fermentation is markedly different from the recipe used by a producer making a buttery Chardonnay. Also the starting amounts of malolactic acids in the grapes will likely have an effect on how much diacetyl is produced.

This is a very fascinating subject for me. After reading that one of the primary ways to block malolactic fermentation is to add sulfites, maybe this is why you have an aversion to wines that are done with blocked malo?

Thanks, Marc, good to know! It makes sense for an interventionist producer to choose the "right" bacteria, as well as the "right" yeast for fermentation. But these are of little interest to most of us here.

For blocking, in addition to SO2, the other method is sterile filtration. Some say one is "worse," others say the other.

A very fine Portuguese producer (noted for his whites) told me he can taste, and doesn't like, when malo has been blocked. So, he never blocks. I suppose that's because malic is harsher than tartaric and, of course, the lactic that comes from malo. While I sometimes find acidity harsh in a way that makes me suspect blocking, I don't have my friend's confidence, so it's not so much an objection to SO2 per se as a matter of non-intervention for me.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

Well, for blocking, there is controlling the temperature of the cellar too. I have always understood that malo reduces a wine's acidity by replacing malic with lactic acid, and that a reason for blocking was to preserve acidity. Does anyone else have Oswaldo's experience?

On the subject of non-Chardonnay wines that get buttery with Malo, I remember a CA Sauvignon blanc from the late 80s or early 90s that was fat, heavy and totally unlike a normal SV. Could it have been a Mondavi? I don't know if it went through butter searching Malo or not, so I don't know if it is evidence against Chardonnay being some form of cause of the problem. But it was a notorious wine at the time, so perhaps someone knows more?

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Well, for blocking, there is controlling the temperature of the cellar too. I have always understood that malo reduces a wine's acidity by replacing malic with lactic acid, and that a reason for blocking was to preserve acidity. Does anyone else have Oswaldo's experience?

Yes, malo reduces the sensation of acidity (but not necessarily total acidity) by converting harsher malic into softer lactic. Blocking, therefore, preserves a greater sensation of acidity by preserving the malic content. So, yes, blocking preserves acidity, but it's the harsher kind of acidity.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Well, for blocking, there is controlling the temperature of the cellar too. I have always understood that malo reduces a wine's acidity by replacing malic with lactic acid, and that a reason for blocking was to preserve acidity. Does anyone else have Oswaldo's experience?

Yes, malo reduces the sensation of acidity (but not necessarily total acidity) by converting harsher malic into softer lactic. Blocking, therefore, preserves a greater sensation of acidity by preserving the malic content. So, yes, blocking preserves acidity, but it's the harsher kind of acidity.

It does reduce total (titratable) acidity. Malic acid is a dicarboxylic acid whereas lactic acid is a monocarboxylic acid, so the total number of acidic sites is reduced (significantly) during MLF.

Regarding the harshness of malic acid, do you also find tartaric acid harsh tasting? There is so little difference between the two that I'd expect them to behave similarly on your tongue.

Mark Lipton

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Well, for blocking, there is controlling the temperature of the cellar too. I have always understood that malo reduces a wine's acidity by replacing malic with lactic acid, and that a reason for blocking was to preserve acidity. Does anyone else have Oswaldo's experience?

Yes, malo reduces the sensation of acidity (but not necessarily total acidity) by converting harsher malic into softer lactic. Blocking, therefore, preserves a greater sensation of acidity by preserving the malic content. So, yes, blocking preserves acidity, but it's the harsher kind of acidity.

It does reduce total (titratable) acidity. Malic acid is a dicarboxylic acid whereas lactic acid is a monocarboxylic acid, so the total number of acidic sites is reduced (significantly) during MLF.

Regarding the harshness of malic acid, do you also find tartaric acid harsh tasting? There is so little difference between the two that I'd expect them to behave similarly on your tongue.

Mark Lipton

Thanks for the TA correction, noted. I don't find tartaric to be harsh (for this observation I am relying on the acidity sensation I get from wines that have undergone malo but don't taste lactic, so should be predominantly tartaric), whereas malic seems clearly harsh (here I am relying on most green and some apples, since wines where malo was blocked will combine malic and tartaric, making it difficult to parse). So, I am surprised at your "little difference" statement.

Fwiw, the first thing I see when googling the difference is: "The main acids that determine total acidity in wine are tartaric, malic, lactic, and citric acids. From a sensory point of view tartaric and citric acid influence freshness sensations while malic acid is harsh although their influence depends on the concentration."

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

For a moment bracketing the question of whether blocking or allowing malo creates the "best" sensation of acid, should it matter to your basic position? Since you view intervention as a sui generis evil, and view MLF as an intervention, does it matter whether you like the results or not? Positing that I liked a little vanilla in my wine but that I shared your views about intervention, shouldn't I still be against the using of new oak? Our views, of course, rarely run counter to our tastes, but they can when the view is held strongly and the sensation is not that important to us.

 

[Marc D]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:


Thanks, Marc, good to know! It makes sense for an interventionist producer to choose the "right" bacteria, as well as the "right" yeast for fermentation. But these are of little interest to most of us here.

For blocking, in addition to SO2, the other method is sterile filtration. Some say one is "worse," others say the other.

A very fine Portuguese producer (noted for his whites) told me he can taste, and doesn't like, when malo has been blocked. So, he never blocks. I suppose that's because malic is harsher than tartaric and, of course, the lactic that comes from malo. While I sometimes find acidity harsh in a way that makes me suspect blocking, I don't have my friend's confidence, so it's not so much an objection to SO2 per se as a matter of non-intervention for me.

.

I think it gets very interesting especially in regards to champagne and when I looked at some of the producers who don’t use malolactic fermentation or do partial malo on some bottles, the list includes a lot of champagnes that I suspect most participants here drink and enjoy.

Here’s a list from an article by Amber Lebeau entitled “Champagne and Climate Change is blocking MLF the answer for fresher bubbles?”
Gosset Grand Reserve
Gosset Grand Reserve Brut.
Alfred Gratien
AR Lenoble (partial though in recent vintages it has been blocked completely)
Bérêche et Fils
Besserat de Bellefon
Guy Charlemagne (partial)
Gosset (Most no MLF. Partial with Brut Excellence NV)
Krug
Laherte Frères (partial for some cuvees. Completely blocked on others.)
Lanson (partial for Black Label. Completely blocked on others)
Roger-Constant Lemaire
Nicolas Maillart (partial)
José Michel & Fils (partial)
Louis Nicaise (partial)
Franck Pascal (partial)
Pehu-Simonet
Perseval-Farge (partial)
Eric Rodez (partial)
Louis Roederer (partial with the Brut premier and sometimes Cristal rose. Completely blocked on others.)
Salon
Frédéric Savart (partial)
Camille Savès
Thevenet-Delouvin (partial)
Vazart-Coquart & Fils (partial)
J.L. Vergnon
Maurice Vesselle
Vilmart & Cie
Philipponnat

So I don’t know the details of how each producer listed here blocks malo. Do they use temperature control, SO2, filtering or some combination? Anyway I drink and really enjoy champagne from several on the above list.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

Thanks! Spending too much on Champagne already, so will block these blockers from my shopping cart.

 

[Marc D]

Well if I had better access to those delicious sparkling Baga wines and palhete pet nats that were such amazing QPR I’d mostly give up on champagne too.

Still thinking about that beautiful chalky, tangy, pink Tubarão with Pastéis de Bacalhau.

 

[robert ames]

i'm surprised that, with respect to tartaric acid, the practice of cold stabilisation hasn't come up.

and here's a simple experiment for finding out how much tartaric acid affects the sensory aspects of a wine. take a wine that hasn't been cold stabilised and put it in the fridge for a week or two and once the tartaric acid crystal formation is complete taste it next to a bottle that has just been chilled.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Marc D:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:


Thanks, Marc, good to know! It makes sense for an interventionist producer to choose the "right" bacteria, as well as the "right" yeast for fermentation. But these are of little interest to most of us here.

For blocking, in addition to SO2, the other method is sterile filtration. Some say one is "worse," others say the other.

A very fine Portuguese producer (noted for his whites) told me he can taste, and doesn't like, when malo has been blocked. So, he never blocks. I suppose that's because malic is harsher than tartaric and, of course, the lactic that comes from malo. While I sometimes find acidity harsh in a way that makes me suspect blocking, I don't have my friend's confidence, so it's not so much an objection to SO2 per se as a matter of non-intervention for me.

.

I think it gets very interesting especially in regards to champagne and when I looked at some of the producers who don’t use malolactic fermentation or do partial malo on some bottles, the list includes a lot of champagnes that I suspect most participants here drink and enjoy.

Here’s a list from an article by Amber Lebeau entitled “Champagne and Climate Change is blocking MLF the answer for fresher bubbles?”
Gosset Grand Reserve
Gosset Grand Reserve Brut.
Alfred Gratien
AR Lenoble (partial though in recent vintages it has been blocked completely)
Bérêche et Fils
Besserat de Bellefon
Guy Charlemagne (partial)
Gosset (Most no MLF. Partial with Brut Excellence NV)
Krug
Laherte Frères (partial for some cuvees. Completely blocked on others.)
Lanson (partial for Black Label. Completely blocked on others)
Roger-Constant Lemaire
Nicolas Maillart (partial)
José Michel & Fils (partial)
Louis Nicaise (partial)
Franck Pascal (partial)
Pehu-Simonet
Perseval-Farge (partial)
Eric Rodez (partial)
Louis Roederer (partial with the Brut premier and sometimes Cristal rose. Completely blocked on others.)
Salon
Frédéric Savart (partial)
Camille Savès
Thevenet-Delouvin (partial)
Vazart-Coquart & Fils (partial)
J.L. Vergnon
Maurice Vesselle
Vilmart & Cie
Philipponnat

So I don’t know the details of how each producer listed here blocks malo. Do they use temperature control, SO2, filtering or some combination? Anyway I drink and really enjoy champagne from several on the above list.

Marc -- I notice that you include Bérêche & Fils, but not Bérêche. Is that deliberate, or are you considering them the same?

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Marc D:
Well if I had better access to those delicious sparkling Baga wines and palhete pet nats that were such amazing QPR I’d mostly give up on champagne too.

Still thinking about that beautiful chalky, tangy, pink Tubarão with Pastéis de Bacalhau.

Not giving up on Champagne, no sir, only giving up on those. But there's definitely a place for the lovely pet nats you mention, and many more.

 

[Marc D]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Marc D:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:


Thanks, Marc, good to know! It makes sense for an interventionist producer to choose the "right" bacteria, as well as the "right" yeast for fermentation. But these are of little interest to most of us here.

For blocking, in addition to SO2, the other method is sterile filtration. Some say one is "worse," others say the other.

A very fine Portuguese producer (noted for his whites) told me he can taste, and doesn't like, when malo has been blocked. So, he never blocks. I suppose that's because malic is harsher than tartaric and, of course, the lactic that comes from malo. While I sometimes find acidity harsh in a way that makes me suspect blocking, I don't have my friend's confidence, so it's not so much an objection to SO2 per se as a matter of non-intervention for me.

.

I think it gets very interesting especially in regards to champagne and when I looked at some of the producers who don’t use malolactic fermentation or do partial malo on some bottles, the list includes a lot of champagnes that I suspect most participants here drink and enjoy.

Here’s a list from an article by Amber Lebeau entitled “Champagne and Climate Change is blocking MLF the answer for fresher bubbles?”

So I don’t know the details of how each producer listed here blocks malo. Do they use temperature control, SO2, filtering or some combination? Anyway I drink and really enjoy champagne from several on the above list.

Marc -- I notice that you include Bérêche & Fils, but not Bérêche. Is that deliberate, or are you considering them the same?

Claude, the list came directly from the article by Amber Lebeau. I don’t know myself.