CWD: What did you drink last night (or whenever)?

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
Opened this 2016 Emrich-Schönleber Halgans last night. Will finish tonight. Delicious from Halenberg young vines. A beautiful mineral food wine based on a wonderfully textural and elegant midpalate.

Nice. And bravo for all the Vilmart in the background...

I don't drink much Emrich-Schönleber, but had some at very nice prices in Germany last year. Obviously a star producer, doesn't need me to buy bottles.

And speaking of finishing on the second day. Yesterday I opened NV Moussé Fils L'Or d'Eugène Brut and found it a bit too Meunier. But the rest of the bottle tonight was absolutely delicious, more juicy and finessed character and it felt like the PN balance was more apparent.

Even better because tonight's bottle of 2008 Louis Boillot Gevrey Champonnet was a big disappointment. Pristine cork but showed all kinds of off-elements throughout. At first it was sour and oxidized on the palate. Filled in a bit with air, and structural elements were elegant and resolved. But the fierce anger never disappeared and I'm not sure that time will be its friend.

 

[Jayson Cohen]

I still haven’t had a Moussé move me, and I wonder if it was an air / development issue each time. (I lack extensive experience with the producer and a predisposition against Meunier developed over years of unsuccessfully trying to get my palate and nose to latch onto something I want in a Meunier-based Champagne.)

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I still haven’t had a Moussé move me, and I wonder if it was an air / development issue each time. (I lack extensive experience with the producer and a predisposition against Meunier developed over years of unsuccessfully trying to get my palate and nose to latch onto something I want in a Meunier-based Champagne.)

I'll defer to others with more experience, but my suspicion is that it's more than just air/development.

In this case, I found joy on day 2 and gained a better appreciation, but I'm not going out to buy more.

And it's not like we would be alone in skepticism of Meunier!

I remember early in my wine-drinking career I enjoyed Franck Pascal and EO Vrigny. And then this week I had a nice bottle of Aubry, where the Meunier was apparent but within control, so I figured why not buy Moussé.

Oh well. All part of the process...

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Jim Hanlon:

originally posted by Brézème:
Based in which village?
There is no Moulin à vent village. The cru is shared by Romanèches Thorin and Chénas.
Thillardon or Rottiers might be what you are looking for.
I think the wines are true to their terroir, without the sophistication of some of the best wines made by some Macon or Fleurie vignerons (a sign of transparency in my mind).
Chateau des Jacques is one of the most unbojo beaujolais that I have tried. Like most of the beaujolais wines made by Bourguignons driving down.

Thanks, Eric (and BJ). Maybe I've already found my MaV in Roilette and Brun. I will revisit Thillardon and Rottiers.

Made curious by these comments, we recently tasted a 2020 Thillardon Chénas and a 2020 Rottiers Moulin à Vent Champ de Cour (over two days each). They seemed quite dissimilar as far as cellar work.

The Thillardon smelled semi-carbonic, had some CO2 spritz and a touch of VA, but light enough to not overly compromise a pretty wine. Thillardon seems to be in the natural camp, judging not only from the liquid but from the language on the back label (vin biologique, sans intrants, etc.).

The Rottiers, in contrast, did not smell semi-carbonic, was less expressive, but smooth and clean. Quite delicious once you get over the “not semi-carbonic” surprise, usually a negative for me for aromatic reasons. The agriculture is organic, but the back label does not suggest that Rottiers self-represents as natural. Would explore this producer more if I didn’t prefer semi-carbonic.

 

[Jay Miller]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I still haven’t had a Moussé move me, and I wonder if it was an air / development issue each time. (I lack extensive experience with the producer and a predisposition against Meunier developed over years of unsuccessfully trying to get my palate and nose to latch onto something I want in a Meunier-based Champagne.)

I'll defer to others with more experience, but my suspicion is that it's more than just air/development.

In this case, I found joy on day 2 and gained a better appreciation, but I'm not going out to buy more.

And it's not like we would be alone in skepticism of Meunier!

Make that three. While I've had Pinot Meunier wines I've loved (notably the Bereche Rive Gauche) I can't say the same for any Moussé I've tried.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I still haven’t had a Moussé move me, and I wonder if it was an air / development issue each time. (I lack extensive experience with the producer and a predisposition against Meunier developed over years of unsuccessfully trying to get my palate and nose to latch onto something I want in a Meunier-based Champagne.)

I am sorry, I can't parse this. No caffeine today yet. Do you or do you not have a predisposition against Meunier?

 

[Jayson Cohen]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I still haven’t had a Moussé move me, and I wonder if it was an air / development issue each time. (I lack extensive experience with the producer and a predisposition against Meunier developed over years of unsuccessfully trying to get my palate and nose to latch onto something I want in a Meunier-based Champagne.)

I am sorry, I can't parse this. No caffeine today yet. Do you or do you not have a predisposition against Meunier?

I do. When it dominates the profile. It’s empirically based. It’s now stuck.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I still haven’t had a Moussé move me, and I wonder if it was an air / development issue each time. (I lack extensive experience with the producer and a predisposition against Meunier developed over years of unsuccessfully trying to get my palate and nose to latch onto something I want in a Meunier-based Champagne.)

I am sorry, I can't parse this. No caffeine today yet. Do you or do you not have a predisposition against Meunier?

I do. When it dominates the profile. It’s empirically based. It’s now stuck.

Traditionally (i.e. in the past decade or so we can start throwing all sorts of rules out the window) the great differentiator between Champagne and other sparkling wine other than prestige justified by price is that the latter is expressly varietal in the glass. I was just rudely reminded of this a couple of weeks ago while sipping a product of Phillipe Collin's exploits in Limoux, assuming based on superficial evidence it was all about Mauzac until the back label revealed a severe case of highly varietal Chardonnay and PN fizz from distant lands. I would conjecture that your objections to PM are just that - that the majority of Champagne producers who fell into the spotlight as our wine-drinking careers unfolded, and for whom PM was more than a blending grape, violated the declaration of varietal neutrality they signed in 451 after defeating Attila the Hun in Chalons and kept pumping out brilliant but uncharacteristically (for the region) varietal examples of fizz dominated by the grape. I greatly enjoyed your bottle of Laherte Blanc de Noirs at PDH this year, but if I were to nitpick then I would certainly include the wine in that particular "offending" category, as I would just about anything I've had from Prevost in recent memory. Yet examples of classically profiled Champagne with subtle PM flavor integration are piling up, most recently from Ponson (a new transatlantic producer), Jerome Dehours, and Sebastien Girost who incidentally happens to be the next door neighbor of Ulysse Collin. Several others, I am sure, that I am not thinking of at the moment. I have great difficulty believing you would not love most of these.

 

[Jim Hanlon]

originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
Importer?

The importer for the Antonella Lombardo is Oliver McCrum.

 

[Jayson Cohen]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I still haven’t had a Moussé move me, and I wonder if it was an air / development issue each time. (I lack extensive experience with the producer and a predisposition against Meunier developed over years of unsuccessfully trying to get my palate and nose to latch onto something I want in a Meunier-based Champagne.)

I am sorry, I can't parse this. No caffeine today yet. Do you or do you not have a predisposition against Meunier?

I do. When it dominates the profile. It’s empirically based. It’s now stuck.

Traditionally (i.e. in the past decade or so we can start throwing all sorts of rules out the window) the great differentiator between Champagne and other sparkling wine other than prestige justified by price is that the latter is expressly varietal in the glass. I was just rudely reminded of this a couple of weeks ago while sipping a product of Phillipe Collin's exploits in Limoux, assuming based on superficial evidence it was all about Mauzac until the back label revealed a severe case of highly varietal Chardonnay and PN fizz from distant lands. I would conjecture that your objections to PM are just that - that the majority of Champagne producers who fell into the spotlight as our wine-drinking careers unfolded, and for whom PM was more than a blending grape, violated the declaration of varietal neutrality they signed in 451 after defeating Attila the Hun in Chalons and kept pumping out brilliant but uncharacteristically (for the region) varietal examples of fizz dominated by the grape. I greatly enjoyed your bottle of Laherte Blanc de Noirs at PDH this year, but if I were to nitpick then I would certainly include the wine in that particular "offending" category, as I would just about anything I've had from Prevost in recent memory. Yet examples of classically profiled Champagne with subtle PM flavor integration are piling up, most recently from Ponson (a new transatlantic producer), Jerome Dehours, and Sebastien Girost who incidentally happens to be the next door neighbor of Ulysse Collin. Several others, I am sure, that I am not thinking of at the moment. I have great difficulty believing you would not love most of these.

Except my experiences with Dehours and Ponson are consistent. Not for me.

The Laherte was 50-50 and I honestly liked it better at the Polaner tasting than the bottle I opened with you. And a day of air didn’t help.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

the Laherte was a very good wine that I was happy to taste, but if that wasn't expressly "Meunier" then I don't know what is. Perhaps your predispositions have nothing to do with the variety?

 

[Jayson Cohen]

What I meant is: the Laherte BdN is 50% Pinot Noir, 50% Pinot Meunier Although I agree the Meunier influence is strong.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
What I meant is: the Laherte BdN is 50% Pinot Noir, 50% Pinot Meunier Although I agree the Meunier influence is strong.

Indeed - I knew about the blend in the first place. Which makes PM's influence here is even more remarkable.

 

[Zachary Ross]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Tea for the Thillardon and the noble Rottiers

originally posted by Jim Hanlon:

originally posted by Brézème:
Based in which village?
There is no Moulin à vent village. The cru is shared by Romanèches Thorin and Chénas.
Thillardon or Rottiers might be what you are looking for.
I think the wines are true to their terroir, without the sophistication of some of the best wines made by some Macon or Fleurie vignerons (a sign of transparency in my mind).
Chateau des Jacques is one of the most unbojo beaujolais that I have tried. Like most of the beaujolais wines made by Bourguignons driving down.

Thanks, Eric (and BJ). Maybe I've already found my MaV in Roilette and Brun. I will revisit Thillardon and Rottiers.

Made curious by these comments, we recently tasted a 2020 Thillardon Chénas and a 2020 Rottiers Moulin à Vent Champ de Cour (over two days each). They seemed quite dissimilar as far as cellar work.

The Thillardon smelled semi-carbonic, had some CO2 spritz and a touch of VA, but light enough to not overly compromise a pretty wine. Thillardon seems to be in the natural camp, judging not only from the liquid but from the language on the back label (vin biologique, sans intrants, etc.).

The Rottiers, in contrast, did not smell semi-carbonic, was less expressive, but smooth and clean. Quite delicious once you get over the “not semi-carbonic” surprise, usually a negative for me for aromatic reasons. The agriculture is organic, but the back label does not suggest that Rottiers self-represents as natural. Would explore this producer more if I didn’t prefer semi-carbonic.

I drank a 2020 Thillardon Moulin-à-Vent Sous la Roche recently. Very pale and semi-carbonic, in what I think of in the Métras style. Very good but not really my cuppa as I prefer more structured wines.

I bought a bunch of Rottiers based on Éric's suggestion (2018 Champ de Cour, 2020 Dernier Souffle, 2021 Thorins) but have yet to try any. Your note is encouraging.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Zachary Ross:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Tea for the Thillardon and the noble Rottiers

originally posted by Jim Hanlon:

originally posted by Brézème:
Based in which village?
There is no Moulin à vent village. The cru is shared by Romanèches Thorin and Chénas.
Thillardon or Rottiers might be what you are looking for.
I think the wines are true to their terroir, without the sophistication of some of the best wines made by some Macon or Fleurie vignerons (a sign of transparency in my mind).
Chateau des Jacques is one of the most unbojo beaujolais that I have tried. Like most of the beaujolais wines made by Bourguignons driving down.

Thanks, Eric (and BJ). Maybe I've already found my MaV in Roilette and Brun. I will revisit Thillardon and Rottiers.

Made curious by these comments, we recently tasted a 2020 Thillardon Chénas and a 2020 Rottiers Moulin à Vent Champ de Cour (over two days each). They seemed quite dissimilar as far as cellar work.

The Thillardon smelled semi-carbonic, had some CO2 spritz and a touch of VA, but light enough to not overly compromise a pretty wine. Thillardon seems to be in the natural camp, judging not only from the liquid but from the language on the back label (vin biologique, sans intrants, etc.).

The Rottiers, in contrast, did not smell semi-carbonic, was less expressive, but smooth and clean. Quite delicious once you get over the “not semi-carbonic” surprise, usually a negative for me for aromatic reasons. The agriculture is organic, but the back label does not suggest that Rottiers self-represents as natural. Would explore this producer more if I didn’t prefer semi-carbonic.

I drank a 2020 Thillardon Moulin-à-Vent Sous la Roche recently. Very pale and semi-carbonic, in what I think of in the Métras style. Very good but not really my cuppa as I prefer more structured wines.

I bought a bunch of Rottiers based on Éric's suggestion (2018 Champ de Cour, 2020 Dernier Souffle, 2021 Thorins) but have yet to try any. Your note is encouraging.

Makes sense to compare Thillardon to Métras (perhaps a less rad version), since I stopped buying Métras because of too much VA for the buck

 

[Zachary Ross]

Keeping with the semi-carbonic vibe, I'm with 2021 La Ferme de L'Arbre Saint-Joseph tonight and ... well, it's not exactly a cuppa Jo', it's more like a gamier Gamay, which, like, is not what I want from Saint-Joseph, ever.

 

[Jim Hanlon]

2016 Coudert Clos de la Roilette Cuvee Tardive: Probably the most open and giving Roilette I've drunk. Nose very present and accessible. Still lots of fruit, darker side, but balanced. I can't predict these wines, but this seems like it is drinking well, with perhaps more to give. Worth trying now if you have a few.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Jim Hanlon:
2016 Coudert Clos de la Roilette Cuvee Tardive: Probably the most open and giving Roilette I've drunk. Nose very present and accessible. Still lots of fruit, darker side, but balanced. I can't predict these wines, but this seems like it is drinking well, with perhaps more to give. Worth trying now if you have a few.

It's always so tricky to figure out when to open these, thanks for the data point!

 

[BJ]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Zachary Ross:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Tea for the Thillardon and the noble Rottiers

originally posted by Jim Hanlon:

originally posted by Brézème:
Based in which village?
There is no Moulin à vent village. The cru is shared by Romanèches Thorin and Chénas.
Thillardon or Rottiers might be what you are looking for.
I think the wines are true to their terroir, without the sophistication of some of the best wines made by some Macon or Fleurie vignerons (a sign of transparency in my mind).
Chateau des Jacques is one of the most unbojo beaujolais that I have tried. Like most of the beaujolais wines made by Bourguignons driving down.

Thanks, Eric (and BJ). Maybe I've already found my MaV in Roilette and Brun. I will revisit Thillardon and Rottiers.

Made curious by these comments, we recently tasted a 2020 Thillardon Chénas and a 2020 Rottiers Moulin à Vent Champ de Cour (over two days each). They seemed quite dissimilar as far as cellar work.

The Thillardon smelled semi-carbonic, had some CO2 spritz and a touch of VA, but light enough to not overly compromise a pretty wine. Thillardon seems to be in the natural camp, judging not only from the liquid but from the language on the back label (vin biologique, sans intrants, etc.).

The Rottiers, in contrast, did not smell semi-carbonic, was less expressive, but smooth and clean. Quite delicious once you get over the “not semi-carbonic” surprise, usually a negative for me for aromatic reasons. The agriculture is organic, but the back label does not suggest that Rottiers self-represents as natural. Would explore this producer more if I didn’t prefer semi-carbonic.

I drank a 2020 Thillardon Moulin-à-Vent Sous la Roche recently. Very pale and semi-carbonic, in what I think of in the Métras style. Very good but not really my cuppa as I prefer more structured wines.

I bought a bunch of Rottiers based on Éric's suggestion (2018 Champ de Cour, 2020 Dernier Souffle, 2021 Thorins) but have yet to try any. Your note is encouraging.

Makes sense to compare Thillardon to Métras (perhaps a less rad version), since I stopped buying Métras because of too much VA for the buck

yup.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Makes sense to compare Thillardon to Métras (perhaps a less rad version), since I stopped buying Métras because of too much VA for the buck

Last summer I found that the oak covered up the VA masterfully in his 09s and 10s, although failed to do so fully in the 11s.