CWD: What did you drink last night (or whenever)?

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

I've come to the conclusion that there is no reason to ever drink Bordeaux seconds. They're made with leftovers and rejects from the grand vin so what does anyone expect?

Well, that's one way of looking at it. But it may be that what goes into the second wine is from younger vines and other plots that don't make for a long-aging wine in the style that the ch“teau wants, but still can be good. Indeed, when I used to go to Bordeaux (last visit was 2001), that was the case, and for younger drinking, you'd usually be foolish to open the grand vin.

There's also the factor that the ch“teau may want to limit the amount of grand vin to drive up the price, and so what's left over is anything but reject.

 

[Keith Levenberg]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

originally posted by Salil Benegal:
2019 Ch“teau Les Carmes Haut-Brion Le C des Carmes Haut-Brion

I've come to the conclusion that there is no reason to ever drink Bordeaux seconds. They're made with leftovers and rejects from the grand vin so what does anyone expect?

Hey, that's pretty much what I said on the 2016 Bordeaux thread and got accosted by an angry drunken fat man for it. But I agree with the rule. There are occasional exceptions in stupendous vintages, but never below the level of the super-seconds, which Carmes definitely ain't no matter how many pointgivers get glamoured by it. (That said, I confess to being impressed by the 2020 Les Carmes. Prior vintages had always underwhelmed me.)

As far as Belair Marquis d'Aligre, I'd urge giving it another chance. I was also underwhelmed by the first bottle I had of it and missed out on a bunch of buying opportunities before giving it another try and finally getting it. I don't know if it was just a better wine or bottle the second time around, or if it really takes some mental adjustment to "get it," but either way, there are rewards and there is no way on earth this won't be a Bordeaux in your wheelhouse.

 

[fatboy]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Hey, that's pretty much what I said on the 2016 Bordeaux thread and got accosted by an angry drunken fat man for it..

don't share teh formula you goddamn pervert. i don't have enough hours in the day.

fb.

 

[Salil Benegal]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

As far as Belair Marquis d'Aligre, I'd urge giving it another chance.

Well, I have a bottle of the 2005 which I'll probably open in the next month or so. Likely whenever I next feel like making roast chicken.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
I've come to the conclusion that there is no reason to ever drink Bordeaux seconds. They're made with leftovers and rejects from the grand vin so what does anyone expect?

Hey, that's pretty much what I said on the 2016 Bordeaux thread and got accosted by an angry drunken fat man for it.

The mountains are high and the emperor lives far away.

I've tried Marquis, I've tried Dame, and a whole bunch of others, and meh.

It's funny about Bordeaux. I like the grand vins and I like the $12 cheapies but it's that middling range that I'd rather buy the same cepages from California.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Salil Benegal:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

As far as Belair Marquis d'Aligre, I'd urge giving it another chance.

Well, I have a bottle of the 2005 which I'll probably open in the next month or so. Likely whenever I next feel like making roast chicken.

I bought a few 2000s because it’s my eldest’s birth year, and the few opened so far have been wow wines for all around the table, meself included.

 

[BJ]

The 2014 Alliet Coteaux de Noire Chinon was definitely head turning. Definitely elevated. The Skurnik site says 25% new oak, I didn't detect any. One of the best wines we've had in a while, better than anything we had over the holidays.

Regretting not visiting them last summer.

 

[Brian C]

originally posted by BJ:
The 2014 Alliet Coteaux de Noire Chinon was definitely head turning. Definitely elevated. The Skurnik site says 25% new oak, I didn't detect any. One of the best wines we've had in a while, better than anything we had over the holidays.

Regretting not visiting them last summer.

I’ve always found Alliet a little on the polished side for my tastes. Sounds like maybe that wasn’t your experience?

 

[BJ]

originally posted by Brian C:

originally posted by BJ:
The 2014 Alliet Coteaux de Noire Chinon was definitely head turning. Definitely elevated. The Skurnik site says 25% new oak, I didn't detect any. One of the best wines we've had in a while, better than anything we had over the holidays.

Regretting not visiting them last summer.

I’ve always found Alliet a little on the polished side for my tastes. Sounds like maybe that wasn’t your experience?

Hey Brian,

Well actually...it was a little polished...I might have called it refined. Vive la difference!

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by Salil Benegal:
Well, I have a bottle of the 2005 which I'll probably open in the next month or so. Likely whenever I next feel like making roast chicken.

three dishes that go spectacularly with the subgroup of margaux that bama belongs to: steak (rare), steak (medium rare), steak (medium). The simpler the preparation - as in throw on coal, turn over once, call me in the morning - the more separation between bama & friends and pretty much any other bordeaux I can think of, where synergy is concerned. Only low-octane napa cab from the 70s and early 80s competes in that space.

an anecdote that can be corroborated by a pair of disorderites: at the closing of 2019, we celebrated the 60th anniversary of the vintage with a bang, with all sorts of insane bottles at the old Racines. Of particular interest were magnums of 59 magdelaine and bama. The madelaine was one of the more sensational jaw-dropping experiences in memory; a wine of absurd complexity, intensity, effortlessness. Easily the red of the night in a great lineup... that is, until a simple and juicy NY strip en cocotte materialized. Magdelaine wasn't even a good pairing - too complex and structured. The bama complemented in a feat of sheer perfection with its singular purity, softer chalk, and crunchy cab-specific acidity. I have since recreated the popular mechanics version of this pairing on numerous occasions with uniform success.

knowing your broad and excellent taste, your famous roast chicken will undoubtedly find a worthy partner, but i doubt the 05 is it

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by Salil Benegal:
Well, I have a bottle of the 2005 which I'll probably open in the next month or so. Likely whenever I next feel like making roast chicken.

three dishes that go spectacularly with the subgroup of margaux that bama belongs to: steak (rare), steak (medium rare), steak (medium). The simpler the preparation - as in throw on coal, turn over once, call me in the morning - the more separation between bama & friends and pretty much any other bordeaux I can think of, where synergy is concerned. Only low-octane napa cab from the 70s and early 80s competes in that space.

an anecdote that can be corroborated by a pair of disorderites: at the closing of 2019, we celebrated the 60th anniversary of the vintage with a bang, with all sorts of insane bottles at the old Racines. Of particular interest were magnums of 59 magdelaine and bama. The madelaine was one of the more sensational jaw-dropping experiences in memory; a wine of absurd complexity, intensity, effortlessness. Easily the red of the night in a great lineup... that is, until a simple and juicy NY strip en cocotte materialized. Magdelaine wasn't even a good pairing - too complex and structured. The bama complemented in a feat of sheer perfection with its singular purity, softer chalk, and crunchy cab-specific acidity. I have since recreated the popular mechanics version of this pairing on numerous occasions with uniform success.

knowing your broad and excellent taste, your famous roast chicken will undoubtedly find a worthy partner, but i doubt the 05 is it

Most fascinating experimental observation, tovarisch. I am at a loss to understand the mechanics. The fats in red meat are known to tame tannins (mechanism understood) but surely the BAMA wasn’t appreciably tannic at that age. Or is it rather that the BAMA possessed a boldness of character that withstood the strong flavors in the meat (whereasthe Magdelaine fell prey to them)?

Mark Lipton

 

[Keith Levenberg]

I second the steak suggestion. Another rule of thumb is that if it's good with a Tondonia, it's good with BAMA.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
I second the steak suggestion. Another rule of thumb is that if it's good with a Tondonia, it's good with BAMA.

have you played around with steak (prepared with any of a dozen politburo-approved methods) and nebbiolo? i have not, but apparently i am missing out

 

[fatboy]

originally posted by Pavel :

three dishes that go spectacularly with the subgroup of margaux that bama belongs to: steak (rare), steak (medium rare), CENSORED . The simpler the preparation - as in throw on coal, turn over once, call me in the morning - the more separation between bama & friends and pretty much any other bordeaux I can think of, where synergy is concerned. Only low-octane napa cab from the 70s and early 80s competes in that space.

for those playing at home over the next months, where possible i would nudge you towards the 1986 and 1990 as you do so. you can thank me after you do.

fb.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by MLipton:
Most fascinating experimental observation, tovarisch. I am at a loss to understand the mechanics. The fats in red meat are known to tame tannins (mechanism understood) but surely the BAMA wasn’t appreciably tannic at that age. Or is it rather that the BAMA possessed a boldness of character that withstood the strong flavors in the meat (whereasthe Magdelaine fell prey to them)?
Mark Lipton

i've communicated my conclusions rather poorly, particularly where the qualities essential and peripheral to the pairing were conflated.

the message is that i am advocating the simplest possible preparation, essentially steakhouse style, with a group of wines that are also (to choose my words carefully) uncomplicated. Not a judgement of quality as I adore the juice, but that's what I was trying to get at with "singular purity." All sorts of Bordeaux does wonders with a steak but most push you towards some kind of a reduction/sauce at a minimum if not a full-blown ragout, or at least a side dish that serves as a flavor bridge.

the other variable is texture. there is plenty of zip in the cabernet when not made by assholes, so the roundness from the softer limestone that's also considerably more exposed in parts of the appellation than just about anywhere else on the left bank is overall a plus in the balance of things.

yours truly tovarisch[who is off in search of a twenty mile bench chardonnay to have with his roast chicken]

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by fatboy:
CENSORED

i want to see how you cook yours when the source of the beast is the moldova danube

 

[Keith Levenberg]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
I second the steak suggestion. Another rule of thumb is that if it's good with a Tondonia, it's good with BAMA.

have you played around with steak (prepared with any of a dozen politburo-approved methods) and nebbiolo? i have not, but apparently i am missing out

No objections, but not often inclined, since neb is as food-friendly as Bordeaux isn't, so when a Bordeaux-drinking opportunity like a steak presents itself, why squander it? Also, almost none of my nebbiolos are ready to drink.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
No objections, but not often inclined, since neb is as food-friendly as Bordeaux isn't, so when a Bordeaux-drinking opportunity like a steak presents itself, why squander it? Also, almost none of my nebbiolos are ready to drink.

which is why my position on "second label" nebbiolo differs from well-established positions on second label bordeaux :-)

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
No objections, but not often inclined, since neb is as food-friendly as Bordeaux isn't, so when a Bordeaux-drinking opportunity like a steak presents itself, why squander it? Also, almost none of my nebbiolos are ready to drink.

which is why my position on "second label" nebbiolo differs from well-established positions on second label bordeaux :-)

This is wisdom. Done carefully, of course.

 

[Keith Levenberg]

What counts as second-label nebbiolo? Seems a fuzzier category than second label Bordeaux. Like are we talking Langhe Nebbiolo or something like Vajra's Barolo Albe, basic Produttori, etc.? I confess I'm not a huge fan of the category, with some exceptions (like Albe). Generally prefer a producer's barbera as the everyday wine in a portfolio. Or to drink a top-notch Alto Piemonte over a low-end Langhe.