TN: The Virtual Tasting #18 (January 20, 2022)

[Jeff Grossman]

attendees: Don & Melissa, Eden & Scott, Jay, Jeff, Lisa, Seth, Victor

Happy New Year to everyone! The vino video club zooms again. Who needs omicron on the grape(-lovers') skins or the terroir of eating under a roast-beef lamp in a cold gutter shack? We are all in our respective yoga pants homes, making our own dinners.

Well, perhaps Pierce makes dinner for Eden and Scott but Don distracts him with Lego talk.

And we're drinking wines from little bottles carefully curated by friends.

--

FLIGHT 1

I've been waiting to pour these two against each other ever since BJ started the topic nearly two years ago.

BLUE SEAL - seems so young, "beautiful nose", "delicious", Jay's preferred for the palate, the label says it is the winemaker's 31st vintage and the wine comes in at 12%

ORANGE SEAL - "super long finish" -Don, Jay's preferred for the nose, also vivid and rich, also medium-weight but smells a bit leathery to me (others don't get that), the label says 13%

All in all, incredible kvelling and the wines deserved it. Not especially silky but dreamy. Jay guesses Italian, Don guesses Burgundy, everyone is astonished that this is Beaujolais (and from a warm year!). The wines really had none of the standard gamay flavor markers, which threw everyone for a loop.

Blue = Brun J P (Terres Dorees) 2009 Morgon
Orange = Lapierre, Marcel 2009 Morgon

The light alcohol does not impede the flavor intensity of the Brun at all, whereas even the 13% of the Lapierre (low by modern standards) can be felt as a slight burn in the finish.
--

FLIGHT 2

Here are two pretty obvious cab/cab-blends.

ANGELICA - OK, there is cedar (some say tobacco), a hint of eucalyptus, noticeable but not exaggerated sweetness in the nose, so this is from California; "everything I love in Cal Cab" -Melissa, "nose developing nicely with air" -Jay, a bit more liqueur-like than Eliza, Don pegs it as a Napa mountain wine but we can't guess more accurately than that

ELIZA - A-a-a-and this is the not-California one, much more rigorous, trim, no excess sugar, no smells from neighboring plants, just perfectly manicured "cab & co."; we eventually chase it down to Margaux (mostly by running out of appellations that aren't merlot-based); "I'm getting bombed here" -Victor, Jay essays 1995 for the vintage and is correct!

Angelica = Phelps J 1995 "Insignia"
Eliza = Ch. Giscours 1995 Margaux

The Phelps is really quite charming in its gruff way. The Giscours is a smug French poodle, and I am reminded that this is the vintage in which the chateau was embroiled in a scandal with its second wine (click, click).
--

FLIGHT 3

These two are just to enjoy. It's winter and I've got a piece of strip loin in front of me, what are you eating with more substantial red wine?

GREEN SEAL - dead. (Sheesh. When I pulled the cork in the morning, the wine smelled fine, although, even by a half hour later, when it was being poured, I was no longer sure. Glad not to have any more of this vintage in storage.)

PINK SEAL - I think this screams syrah but Jay guesses nebbiolo and Don guesses grenache. Victor says it's gone all to secondary flavors... which it has. Eventually the group pegs it into St-Joseph.

Green = Mascarello G 1997 Barolo "Monprivato"
Pink = Gonon P 2006 St-Joseph Rouge

It took a while but I finally was reminded that Antonio Galloni made a fuss about Monprivato of this era, that it was not up to snuff. I looked it up and his qualms started with this vintage: it did not taste right to him but he gave it the benefit of the doubt, just a few years later he was withdrawing his support. A later interview with the family says that they only changed one thing in 1997: package yeast instead of wild. Is that sufficient? In any case, I also read through various TN archives and opinions are all over the place. It appears that consistency is not a strong suit for this vintage.

I'm going to have to do something to defend the honor of nebbiolo-based wines next time.
--

FLIGHT 4

Lisa and I confer on a private channel about the sweeties. She says her wine showed weakly this morning so we agree to send it through first.

PEGGY - Well, it ain't weak no more!: it's got a nose of PX (yes, a teeny bit aldehydic) and brown sugar but still light on the palate, still dancing a merry jig even with a bunch of sugar in tow. We all scramble for a piece of chocolate to eat with the Banyuls, a wow wine; Day 2: same.

YELLOW SEAL - Victor immediately guesses older riesling (right). "Lemon bar! I want to go into a bakery and buy something like this" -Don, "Lavender or something else floral" -Melissa, "There's celery" -Eden, "Caraway, like what gets stuck in your teeth after eating rye bread" -Victor. I agree with Don and Eden, though it's a lotta lotta lemon and just a teeny teeny celery. The sweetness has receded enough that Eden guesses it to be spatlese. The label says 7.5%. This is an SFJoe bottle.

Peggy = Dom. du Traginer 1995 Banyuls Grand Cru
Yellow = Maximin Grunhauser 2001 Abtsberg Riesling Auslese (AP27)
--

Heck, we had really excellent wines tonight. Post-event limerance is more specific than usual:
- Victor: lots of good wines, i even liked that 12% morgon, not to mention that sublime riesling
- Jay: Some truly beautiful wines last night
- Seth (Day2): 09 Lapierre is BANGIN', the Giscours is really nice now but the Insignia seems to have fallen apart, Holy Shit the Gonon is good right now!!!

 

[Jayson Cohen]

Sounds great. Sorry to miss.

I have 3 of the 2001 Abtsberg Aus still for future live events if folks want a repeat. Not SF Joe bottles. Last night, I was thinking that we have mourned sufficiently and Joe would want us to revive the JCWC. Perhaps Summer 2022.

 

[Rahsaan]

Seems like you folks have really gotten this virtual tasting down to a science. The prep of the wines is great, and really adds to things, in comparison to people just tuning in and drinking their own wines.

Do you think you'll continue with this even after covid concerns? Convenience is obviously a big plus. But what about the flow of conversation? One of the ongoing challenges I have with large group zooms is the inability to have sidebar conversations, so everyone has to stay in the same conversation at once, which gets awkward.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

Gonon wasn't the VV bottling, was it? We pulled one at the most recent luis gutierrez / william kelley invitational at the soon-to-be-reincarnated racines, and it was quite memorable.

MG was still making good wine in 2001? This is why I love this board. Learn something new every day.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
BLUE SEAL - seems so young, "beautiful nose", "delicious", Jay's preferred for the palate, the label says it is the winemaker's 31st vintage and the wine comes in at 12%

ORANGE SEAL - "super long finish" -Don, Jay's preferred for the nose, also vivid and rich, also medium-weight but smells a bit leathery to me (others don't get that), the label says 13%

All in all, incredible kvelling and the wines deserved it. Not especially silky but dreamy. Jay guesses Italian, Don guesses Burgundy, everyone is astonished that this is Beaujolais (and from a warm year!). The wines really had none of the standard gamay flavor markers, which threw everyone for a loop.

Blue = Brun J P (Terres Dorees) 2009 Morgon
Orange = Lapierre, Marcel 2009 Morgon

The light alcohol does not impede the flavor intensity of the Brun at all, whereas even the 13% of the Lapierre (low by modern standards) can be felt as a slight burn in the finish.

The only 2009 I have left is Coudert Tardive. For some reason, I don't cellar much Brun (probably a mistake) and my Lapiere is long gone.

So where do folks stand on Gamay going pinote? I used to think that was cool, but these days when I drink a Gamay I want it to be exactly like Gamay. One of the reasons that I'm turning towards earlier maturing wines or just drinking the ones I have younger.

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
GREEN SEAL - dead. (Sheesh. When I pulled the cork in the morning, the wine smelled fine, although, even by a half hour later, when it was being poured, I was no longer sure. Glad not to have any more of this vintage in storage.)

PINK SEAL - I think this screams syrah but Jay guesses nebbiolo and Don guesses grenache. Victor says it's gone all to secondary flavors... which it has. Eventually the group pegs it into St-Joseph.

Green = Mascarello G 1997 Barolo "Monprivato"
Pink = Gonon P 2006 St-Joseph Rouge

It took a while but I finally was reminded that Antonio Galloni made a fuss about Monprivato of this era, that it was not up to snuff. I looked it up and his qualms started with this vintage: it did not taste right to him but he gave it the benefit of the doubt, just a few years later he was withdrawing his support. A later interview with the family says that they only changed one thing in 1997: package yeast instead of wild. Is that sufficient? In any case, I also read through various TN archives and opinions are all over the place. It appears that consistency is not a strong suit for this vintage.

I'm going to have to do something to defend the honor of nebbiolo-based wines next time.

Staying on brand, I'm not so sure about 25+ year old Nebbiolo. I think that the great bottles occlude our honest evaluation that, pace Jamie, most of them would have been better younger (if you like fruit and freshness in your wines). I had really disappointing experiences with 1996 and 1999 white label Giacosa Falletto recently and I sold my remaining bottles. They have been cellared by me since release, so the corks were only stained on the end (none of this "perfect bottle, the cork came out whole and was only stained half way up" nonsense). I guess I really don't like some of those mature notes in Nebbiolo, especially on the soy/balsamic end of the spectrum. I like the pristine cherries and roses.

Do you think the Gonon would have been better a few years back or is it exactly where you want it to be?

 

[MLipton]

Great set of wines there, folks, and nice write up. Jeff. I still have that 09 Brun Morgon. I’ve resisted opening most of the few 09s that I bought because of that lack of typicity that you note. I never did get the 09 Lapierre as my usual sources dried up amid the Parker bored frenzy surrounding it.

A couple of small quibbles, as we live for the pedantry here, no? First, I don’t think it’s fair to call Phelps Insignia a mountain wine. The vineyards used for the Insignia are close to the winery IIRC, so in St Helena foothills.

Also, with the 06 Gonon (a terrific wine, I agree — I finished mine a few years ago, though, so kudos for your patience, which seems duly rewarded) I think you mean tertiary, not secondary, aromas. The way I learned it, secondary characteristics come from the elevage at the winery, so oak influence, ML fermentation character, etc. Tertiary characteristics are those associated with bottle aging, or so I was told.

And pardon my ignorance, but what is the JCWC? Jesus Christ Water Closet seems improbable.

Mark Lipton

 

[Jayson Cohen]

originally posted by MLipton:
Great set of wines there, folks, and nice write up. Jeff. I still have that 09 Brun Morgon. I’ve resisted opening most of the few 09s that I bought because of that lack of typicity that you note. I never did get the 09 Lapierre as my usual sources dried up amid the Parker bored frenzy surrounding it.

A couple of small quibbles, as we live for the pedantry here, no? First, I don’t think it’s fair to call Phelps Insignia a mountain wine. The vineyards used for the Insignia are close to the winery IIRC, so in St Helena foothills.

Also, with the 06 Gonon (a terrific wine, I agree — I finished mine a few years ago, though, so kudos for your patience, which seems duly rewarded) I think you mean tertiary, not secondary, aromas. The way I learned it, secondary characteristics come from the elevage at the winery, so oak influence, ML fermentation character, etc. Tertiary characteristics are those associated with bottle aging, or so I was told.

And pardon my ignorance, but what is the JCWC? Jesus Christ Water Closet seems improbable.

Mark Lipton

The Jayson Cohen Wine Club (coined by Jeff Connell) was formed circa 2000 at a dinner for four at L’Acajou on 19th Street. Original members were me (the mascot), Jeff Cohen (Connell), Joe Cohen (Dougherty), and Javier Cohen (Sasha). The story of the formation is one that must be told in person, but my recollection is the occasion was the opening of all new 1999 releases from the Cotat cousins. Later JCWC guest members, subsequently elevated to full member status, were Jaime Cohen (Manuel Camblor) and Jew Cohen (Victor Lederer) with occasional guest star IIRC Jay Cohen (Miller). The club went into hibernation when the mascot went to law school but was resuscitated for special events between 2006 and 2014. The last formal meeting coincided with Javier Cohen’s 50th birthday party in August 2014. Out of deference to losing a founding member, the only formal meeting since then coincided with Jaime’s 50th birthday celebration in NYC in 2018.

The club’s status is under perpetual review by the remaining members.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:

originally posted by MLipton:
Great set of wines there, folks, and nice write up. Jeff. I still have that 09 Brun Morgon. I’ve resisted opening most of the few 09s that I bought because of that lack of typicity that you note. I never did get the 09 Lapierre as my usual sources dried up amid the Parker bored frenzy surrounding it.

A couple of small quibbles, as we live for the pedantry here, no? First, I don’t think it’s fair to call Phelps Insignia a mountain wine. The vineyards used for the Insignia are close to the winery IIRC, so in St Helena foothills.

Also, with the 06 Gonon (a terrific wine, I agree — I finished mine a few years ago, though, so kudos for your patience, which seems duly rewarded) I think you mean tertiary, not secondary, aromas. The way I learned it, secondary characteristics come from the elevage at the winery, so oak influence, ML fermentation character, etc. Tertiary characteristics are those associated with bottle aging, or so I was told.

And pardon my ignorance, but what is the JCWC? Jesus Christ Water Closet seems improbable.

Mark Lipton

The Jayson Cohen Wine Club (coined by Jeff Connell) was formed circa 2000 at a dinner for four at L’Acajou on 19th Street. Original members were me (the mascot), Jeff Cohen (Connell), Joe Cohen (Dougherty), and Javier Cohen (Sasha). The story of the formation is one that must be told in person, but my recollection is the occasion was the opening of all new 1999 releases from the Cotat cousins. Later JCWC guest members, subsequently elevated to full member status, were Jaime Cohen (Manuel Camblor) and Jew Cohen (Victor Lederer) with occasional guest star IIRC Jay Cohen (Miller). The club went into hibernation when the mascot went to law school but was resuscitated for special events between 2006 and 2014. The last formal meeting coincided with Javier Cohen’s 50th birthday party in August 2014. Out of deference to losing a founding member, the only formal meeting since then coincided with Jaime’s 50th birthday celebration in NYC in 2018.

The club’s status is under perpetual review by the remaining members.

Aha! Thanks for the explanation. In the words of Coad (RiP), jokes are always better when explained. Courtesy of a cousin of mine who wanted to marry a rabbi, I now know that there are some Cohens in my ancestry, so there’s that.

Mark Lipton

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

Mark, will you make up your mind - are you a Cohen or a Rothschild?

Jayson, did I miss the executive meeting that renamed Jocko to Jaime? Was there a quorum?

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
Mark, will you make up your mind - are you a Cohen or a Rothschild?

Jayson, did I miss the executive meeting that renamed Jocko to Jaime? Was there a quorum?

Neither, damnit! I’m a Sulzbach, related by marriage to the Warburgs and our historic rivals, the Rothschilds (I got to see the seven-headed Wyvern of Mayer Amschel on the side of the future Hotel Villa Rothschild in Königstein as well as the former Villa Sulzbach in Königstein im Taunus back in the day). This also accounts for my relation to Max Born.

Mark Lipton

 

[Brad Kane]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:

The Jayson Cohen Wine Club (coined by Jeff Connell) was formed circa 2000 at a dinner for four at L’Acajou on 19th Street. Original members were me (the mascot), Jeff Cohen (Connell), Joe Cohen (Dougherty), and Javier Cohen (Sasha). The story of the formation is one that must be told in person, but my recollection is the occasion was the opening of all new 1999 releases from the Cotat cousins. Later JCWC guest members, subsequently elevated to full member status, were Jaime Cohen (Manuel Camblor) and Jew Cohen (Victor Lederer) with occasional guest star IIRC Jay Cohen (Miller). The club went into hibernation when the mascot went to law school but was resuscitated for special events between 2006 and 2014. The last formal meeting coincided with Javier Cohen’s 50th birthday party in August 2014. Out of deference to losing a founding member, the only formal meeting since then coincided with Jaime’s 50th birthday celebration in NYC in 2018.

AKA the secret .sasha board.

 

[Jay Miller]

originally posted by Rahsaan:
Seems like you folks have really gotten this virtual tasting down to a science. The prep of the wines is great, and really adds to things, in comparison to people just tuning in and drinking their own wines.

Do you think you'll continue with this even after covid concerns? Convenience is obviously a big plus. But what about the flow of conversation? One of the ongoing challenges I have with large group zooms is the inability to have sidebar conversations, so everyone has to stay in the same conversation at once, which gets awkward.

One key is to not have too large a group. We have 7 which is good.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Rahsaan:
Do you think you'll continue with this even after covid concerns? Convenience is obviously a big plus. But what about the flow of conversation? One of the ongoing challenges I have with large group zooms is the inability to have sidebar conversations, so everyone has to stay in the same conversation at once, which gets awkward.

Dunno. Flow of conversation is fine, seems to me. We know we're together so we all take our most magisterial stances. It's easy enough to conduct personal business via some other channel.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
Gonon wasn't the VV bottling, was it? We pulled one at the most recent luis gutierrez / william kelley invitational at the soon-to-be-reincarnated racines, and it was quite memorable.

No, it was not. I have one more of those yet.

MG was still making good wine in 2001? This is why I love this board. Learn something new every day.

Tut, tut.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by VLM:
I don't cellar much Brun (probably a mistake)

The wine are so low-key when young that I don't blame you at all. But they do reward aging, as Pavel has said.

So where do folks stand on Gamay going pinote? I used to think that was cool, but these days when I drink a Gamay I want it to be exactly like Gamay. One of the reasons that I'm turning towards earlier maturing wines or just drinking the ones I have younger.

Completely understandable stance. Yet two comments leap to mind.

Firstly, if the wine is good then the wine is good. I don't want to advocate too hard for what's-in-the-glass, though.

Secondly, it's not like Jean-Paul introduced nanobots into the wine, you know? This is something that gamay naturally does and so, for the purposes of putting things into categories, there is nothing wrong with pinote.

Staying on brand, I'm not so sure about 25+ year old Nebbiolo. I think that the great bottles occlude our honest evaluation that, pace Jamie, most of them would have been better younger (if you like fruit and freshness in your wines). I had really disappointing experiences with 1996 and 1999 white label Giacosa Falletto recently and I sold my remaining bottles. They have been cellared by me since release, so the corks were only stained on the end (none of this "perfect bottle, the cork came out whole and was only stained half way up" nonsense). I guess I really don't like some of those mature notes in Nebbiolo, especially on the soy/balsamic end of the spectrum. I like the pristine cherries and roses.

Barolo used to need all that time to come out from behind its wall of tannin. The cherries and roses period was unreachable by mortal tongues. It's different now.

Do you think the Gonon would have been better a few years back or is it exactly where you want it to be?

Yes, it is exactly what I want from aging syrah: it is still syrah, no question at all about that, but I think I get the terroir better when the fruit-acid-sugar rush has eased-off a bit.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by MLipton:
Great set of wines there, folks, and nice write up. Jeff. I still have that 09 Brun Morgon. I’ve resisted opening most of the few 09s that I bought because of that lack of typicity that you note.

Thanks.

Given how good the experience, I wouldn't hesitate to open the wine. Or, at least, get a better objection.

First, I don’t think it’s fair to call Phelps Insignia a mountain wine. The vineyards used for the Insignia are close to the winery IIRC, so in St Helena foothills.

NMW. I defer to Don and Lisa.

Also, with the 06 Gonon (a terrific wine, I agree — I finished mine a few years ago, though, so kudos for your patience, which seems duly rewarded) I think you mean tertiary, not secondary, aromas. The way I learned it, secondary characteristics come from the elevage at the winery, so oak influence, ML fermentation character, etc. Tertiary characteristics are those associated with bottle aging, or so I was told.

You're right on this one. Mea culpa. Victor said it and I knew what he meant and said yes, though the word is wrong.

 

[Larry Stein]

originally posted by Jay Miller:

originally posted by Rahsaan:
Seems like you folks have really gotten this virtual tasting down to a science. The prep of the wines is great, and really adds to things, in comparison to people just tuning in and drinking their own wines.

Do you think you'll continue with this even after covid concerns? Convenience is obviously a big plus. But what about the flow of conversation? One of the ongoing challenges I have with large group zooms is the inability to have sidebar conversations, so everyone has to stay in the same conversation at once, which gets awkward.

One key is to not have too large a group. We have 7 which is good.

What Jay said. My group has been doing a Zoom since April 2020. Typically, there's 8 of us. One person "hosts" from his cellar. One member has designated his house as the drop-off/pick-up spot. He leaves a cooler outside of the front door. Drop off is the day before we taste. Usually, Sunday drop off and Monday tasting. With rare exception, the wines are no worse for the wear with that amount of time out of the bottle. We've experimented with 30-40+ year old reds (Barolo, Rioja, Cal Cabs) and they've been fine.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Larry Stein:

originally posted by Jay Miller:
One key is to not have too large a group. We have 7 which is good.

What Jay said. My group has been doing a Zoom since April 2020. Typically, there's 8 of us. One person "hosts" from his cellar. One member has designated his house as the drop-off/pick-up spot. He leaves a cooler outside of the front door. Drop off is the day before we taste. Usually, Sunday drop off and Monday tasting. With rare exception, the wines are no worse for the wear with that amount of time out of the bottle. We've experimented with 30-40+ year old reds (Barolo, Rioja, Cal Cabs) and they've been fine.

Oh, you Porch People!

And, do we ever see notes? No, no, that's all right, we'll just sit here in the dark.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Jay Miller:

One key is to not have too large a group. We have 7 which is good.

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Dunno. Flow of conversation is fine, seems to me. We know we're together so we all take our most magisterial stances. It's easy enough to conduct personal business via some other channel.

Well, glad it works for you all. I guess it depends on the group. My main social group Zoom experience is with my family, usually from 5-7 people. We all love socializing in person but the Zooms are often so frustrating, as the conversation gets chopped from different threads. Maybe it's a Maxwell problem!

 

[Jayson Cohen]

originally posted by Rahsaan:
Maybe it's a Maxwell problem!

Zoom ultimately does boil down to a Maxwell problem.