CWD: Disorderly Adjacent 2016 Bordeaux

"What are the specific spoofs that people object to?"

there were no objections to "spoof" - I can speak for both myself and Jayson since he was sitting in front of me with his halal guys take-out (and while clearly distracted by 2010 agnes corbon i served him, he was paying requisite attention).
that was expanded context introduced by keith and tristan, after the fact.

i will try to reply in detail later - can't now
 
originally posted by VLM:


What are the specific spoofs that people object to? I think that the silkiness and fruit depth can be attributed to farming and warming unless there is something else at play that would effect the way the wine would age like R/O.
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I associate a certain smoothness and coffee-mocha hints with pressing off at least some of the wine early and finishing the last bit of fermentation in barrel. Especially with Merlot. Whether that constitutes spoof is a rabbit hole I'd rather not go down.
 
originally posted by Jim Hanlon:
They haven't been discussed in this thread, so I'll call out the Bel Air Marquis d'Aligre wines (sometimes referred to as BAMA). As I've said, I drink very little Bordeaux. That said, I understand these are atypical and a throwback not so much to the 1960s or 1970s, but to the 19th Century or early 20th Century. They are scarce, but CSW gets some every so often. There's good info on the domaine online. VLM, you should check them out if you haven't. They may not scratch the Bordeaux itch for you, but I'd be surprised if you didn't like them. They might even be worth going outside NC for.
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I've had a few vintages. I think they're fine. I have a few bottles in the cellar but while I get the throwback appeal for some, they don't do a ton for me.

I don't really get the nostalgia for most of the Bordeaux from the 60s and 70s. Pre green revolution you could maybe make an argument that they were artisanal is some sense but the farming practices are much better now. I don't know how modern wine science techniques are deployed on a case-by-case basis but I think that climate change has pushed us into a new epoch for "ripeness" from which there is probably no return. Personally, silky fruit doesn't bother me it's just a matter of how much and what else is there. Otherwise, it might as well be Cheval des Andes.
 
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
originally posted by VLM:


What are the specific spoofs that people object to? I think that the silkiness and fruit depth can be attributed to farming and warming unless there is something else at play that would effect the way the wine would age like R/O.
Click to expand...
I associate a certain smoothness and coffee-mocha hints with pressing off at least some of the wine early and finishing the last bit of fermentation in barrel. Especially with Merlot. Whether that constitutes spoof is a rabbit hole I'd rather not go down.
Click to expand...

At this point, it might be time to retire spoof. It feels like it's from another era. When major Pauillac Ch“teau are biodynamic and uses concrete eggs and everyone is talking about leaving on more canopy and picking earlier it sort of seems like the anti-spoofers of the 90s and 00s pretty much won.
 
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
originally posted by VLM:


What are the specific spoofs that people object to? I think that the silkiness and fruit depth can be attributed to farming and warming unless there is something else at play that would effect the way the wine would age like R/O.
Click to expand...
I associate a certain smoothness and coffee-mocha hints with pressing off at least some of the wine early and finishing the last bit of fermentation in barrel. Especially with Merlot. Whether that constitutes spoof is a rabbit hole I'd rather not go down.
Click to expand...

At this point, it might be time to retire spoof. It feels like it's from another era. When major Pauillac Ch“teau are biodynamic and uses concrete eggs and everyone is talking about leaving on more canopy and picking earlier it sort of seems like the anti-spoofers of the 90s and 00s pretty much won.
Click to expand...

You might be right. Depends on how we define it. Is the widespread use of spinning cone to reduce alcohol in Napa Valley spoof?

When I worked crush at Chateau Giscours in the early 70s they put some of the must through a thermovinification machine. I would call that spoof, but I would not know if anyone still uses it. Was the widespread use of rotary fermentors in Piemonte spoof? Or "sorta-spoof"? Not really sure where to draw the line.
 
originally posted by VLM:
The 2016 was a different beast, but we also liked it but in a different way. It had a lot more fruit and a real velvety texture. I didn't find it too prominently oaked but texturally it seemed like it was from a different era. There were some of that mineral and earth tones that I associate with Pessac but it was really about the silky fruit and length. I imagine that with age it will show more of the earthy/mineral elements but I don't know.
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This is a very good description consistent with my impressions. The fact that the wine doesn't come across oaky minimizes the extent to which I'd care about finishing fermentations or malo in barrel. (Does DDC actually do that? I don't know, didn't they put in concrete eggs?) I also agree that the classic Graves scorched-earth characteristics are sometimes there, sometimes not, but never obvious and there's no real way to tell if it's going to come out other than the old wait-and-see. I will say that if you like that signature of Graves (and I do!) the wines it's most prominent in at a young age are among the most Parker-pointsy-styled - Smith Haut Lafitte, Branon, etc. DDC is light and elegant in comparison, even now. Capable of being as long-lived and ethereal as the 1924? Well, probably not.

I would say $70 around what you should be paying for DDC these days. Occasionally available a bit less, often more, but you don't need to pay more than $70 if you have your eye open. Again, compares favorable to Haut-Bailly at $120-$150 post-2014, though I still buy them both annually (or at least Bordeaux-annually, which means when they have a good vintage).
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
originally posted by VLM:


I would say $70 around what you should be paying for DDC these days. Occasionally available a bit less, often more, but you don't need to pay more than $70 if you have your eye open. Again, compares favorable to Haut-Bailly at $120-$150 post-2014, though I still buy them both annually (or at least Bordeaux-annually, which means when they have a good vintage).
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Interesting on the pricing in the US. And I wonder what you think of the prices below and if you have any recommendations on these vintages? In Norway, there are several importers of DDC and their prices vary wildly. Taking into account all the taxes we pay on wine plus 25% VAT they are (lowest prices indicated):

2010: $180
2011: $85
2014: $85
2016: $75
2017: $75
2018: $100
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'16 looks like the deal there though I admit liking the '18 a notch better. Shouldn't be much longer till the '19 shows up, though, and it will be cheaper than both
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
'16 looks like the deal there though I admit liking the '18 a notch better. Shouldn't be much longer till the '19 shows up, though, and it will be cheaper than both
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Thanks. Given the 18 is 14.5% and the 2016 13.5%, the latter seems the obvious choice given my aversion to higher alcohol wines.
 
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
'16 looks like the deal there though I admit liking the '18 a notch better. Shouldn't be much longer till the '19 shows up, though, and it will be cheaper than both
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Thanks. Given the 18 is 14.5% and the 2016 13.5%, the latter seems the obvious choice given my aversion to higher alcohol wines.
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Ya. And I would be curious to hear what side of this fence you fall on given I often have strong alignment with VLM and Keith and yet here we clearly diverge.
 
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
'16 looks like the deal there though I admit liking the '18 a notch better. Shouldn't be much longer till the '19 shows up, though, and it will be cheaper than both
Click to expand...

Thanks. Given the 18 is 14.5% and the 2016 13.5%, the latter seems the obvious choice given my aversion to higher alcohol wines.
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just remember that during those bad old trump tariff days even beaujolais nouveau could be found sporting 14.5% on the label.

the '18 very well may be have been labelled correctly--but if it seems fishy, look for a red herring.
 
Had the 16 Ch. Marquis d'Alesme a couple of nights ago. Liked it a lot - more red fruited in character than a lot of other 16s I've tried lately, a bit leaner on the palate with lots of tannin, but great balance. I'll have to try the 18 soon...
 
William Kelley has some pretty bold claims on the DDC style evolution in his rave review of the 2019 -

"...Stylistically, this wine exhibits a much closer affinity with the great Domaine de Chevalier of yesteryear than much of what was produced here in the early 2000s. It's a masterclass in what contemporary Bordeaux can deliver, and worth a special effort to seek out.

"This 67-hectare estate in Pessac-Léognan is at the top of its game today, and the 2019 vintage is a striking success. ... Since 1983, Domaine de Chevalier has naturally evolved: as new plantings came online, the wines lost some of the intensity-without-weight that had always been their signature; in the early 2000s, a concerted effort was made to attain fuller maturity and more concentration, and the wines became a little chunkier and more obviously oaky, too; but recent years have seen a return to seamless elegance, without any loss of depth or persistence. In many respects, indeed, the last few vintages of Domaine de Chevalier bear a closer stylistic kinship to the great wines produced at this address in the 1970s and before than they do to the vintages of the early 2000s. ..."

That is way further than I'd have been comfortable going but maybe the '19 will persuade.

Can probably kiss the bargain pricing goodbye though.
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
"In many respects, indeed, the last few vintages of Domaine de Chevalier bear a closer stylistic kinship to the great wines produced at this address in the 1970s and before than they do to the vintages of the early 2000s. ..."
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the writer was born in 1989. which is probably why this reminded me of CENSORED's thoughts on the young 47s. that and the banner, anyway. a rum game is this wine hyping schtick.

fb. (channeling yoda)
 
originally posted by fatboy:
fb. (channeling yoda)
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remember the '95 we ordered in Stuttgart? seemed pretty classic to me.

this weekend will be a good time to open the '94 then, if someone commissions a report. just wondering if it's more of a first seder or second seder wine?
 
originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

remember the '95 we ordered in Stuttgart? seemed pretty classic to me.
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i do. more classic then a recent 75, which was just blocky (and not generic 75 blocky either).

just wondering if it's more of a first seder or second seder wine?
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either way, best served before the manischewitz concorde.

fb.
 
I grew up with Bordeaux from the 60ies, 70ies and 80ies, blew my students budget with Bordeaux (and Burgundy) from the 90ies, quit buying with 2000 as this is the birth year of my eldest child and I wasn't happy with how the wine industry in Bordeaux had developed. Visited Bordeaux for the first time in 2007 and was shocked of how industrialized production was in Bordeaux.

However, I was positively impressed by many 2008 and became a buyer again with the 2014. Bought some fine 2015 - Brane Cantenac comes to mind, and loaded up in 2016. I think this is a magnificent vintage for Bordeaux. Many fine examples have been mentioned, I think Comtesse de Lalande is really outstanding. A favorite of mine that surprisingly - and maybe fortunately - never gets mentioned is Lagrange St-Julien. A must buy for me all the years through.
 
originally posted by Anders Gautschi:
A favorite of mine that surprisingly - and maybe fortunately - never gets mentioned is Lagrange St-Julien. A must buy for me all the years through.
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I started paying attention when it got lots of coverage in View from the Cellar. I recall their 2008 being a particularly successful and reasonably priced vintage, at least on release. The 1993 was excellent last year; a wine marked by some wood but very classically so, and never out of balance. You could deduce it was integrating nicely over time.
 
I would like to put in a new feature request.

Searching for Domaine de Chevalier should also return hits for DDC. It took me a few days to relocate this excellent and informative thread before I realized what to search on.

While you're at it you can do the same for CRB.
 
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