Chambers.nyc

originally posted by VLM:

The internet, and social media especially, have really pushed the velocity of information and narrowed and specified what is "cool"...
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What is the comparison? Pre-internet, my understanding was that there was an even narrower set of wine regions and wines that got broad attention?

Yes, there is a winner-take-all dynamic to the social media world. But, winner of targeted 'niche' audiences, because there are so many more (wine) subcultures these days. At least that's my impression.
 
originally posted by VLM: a gaggle of obnoxious douchenozzles were drinking a set of wines they should have been embarrassed about, were so loud they destroyed any ambiance in the room
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To the extent that one can generalize, it has often been observed and commented on that young people evidently like loudness. They talk loudly to one another and patronize loud restaurants/venues. This has been noticed on numerous occasions in group settings.

And then, there is the ultra-casual attire so many of the younger generation favor.

Great people -- only wish they displayed a bit more refinement.

Of course, they probably shake their heads at the older generation.

. . . . . . Pete
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
Yes, there is a winner-take-all dynamic to the social media world.
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Dog-eat-dog, is more like it. I stay off social media as much as possible. (This bored is anti-social media, I guess.)
 
originally posted by Peter Creasey:

originally posted by VLM: a gaggle of obnoxious douchenozzles were drinking a set of wines they should have been embarrassed about, were so loud they destroyed any ambiance in the room
Click to expand...

To the extent that one can generalize, it has often been observed and commented on that young people evidently like loudness. They talk loudly to one another and patronize loud restaurants/venues. This has been noticed on numerous occasions in group settings.

And then, there is the ultra-casual attire so many of the younger generation favor.

Great people -- only wish they displayed a bit more refinement.

Of course, they probably shake their heads at the older generation.

. . . . . . Pete
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The passive voice evasions here are striking. You all need to read Socrates on the younger generation to see how long such old people whining has been going on. Then say "get off my lawn" ten times to get it out of your systems and get on with your lives.
 
originally posted by Peter Creasey:

originally posted by VLM: a gaggle of obnoxious douchenozzles were drinking a set of wines they should have been embarrassed about, were so loud they destroyed any ambiance in the room
Click to expand...

And then, there is the ultra-casual attire so many of the younger generation favor.

. . . . . . Pete
Click to expand...

I wear a sport coat once in a blue moon. I think I've worn a tie 3-4 times in the past dozen years. Hate those little fuckers. I don't even own a suit.

Oh yeah, I'm 68.
 
I've got a '14 Pineau d'Aunis rosé I haven't opened, since the only time I tasted it it was in such an ugly humor. Maybe I'll try it out in the next few days
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by Jim Hanlon:
Does anyone know how they keep so much wine on site? They must have a very sizeable cellar hidden somewhere.

Speaking from personal preference, encyclopedic lists like this are always impressive. But they're also so daunting. Would the list be any less interesting if it were 1/10th this size? I don't really think so. There would still be many cool, exciting wines. But I get that this brings people in.
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I suppose it does.
Bern’s seems to pimp on such a list.

‘Best wine list I’ve seen had 16 choices for still wine and 3 for sparkling. ‘Little place called Castagna in Portland, OR.
Eight red, eight white, no repeat varieties, no mass market stuff, and each chosen by someone who knew what they were doing.
Of course, my visits were 20 years ago; perhaps things have changed.
Best, Jim
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Those lists are very user friendly, but if the buyer's palate doesn't overlap much with yours, you are left thinking "I wonder what's on tap?"
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Actually, that is probably just under 3X retail, which is, alas, practically the new restaurant standard. Other entries are more than 3X. I really don't know how restaurants sell wine anymore. In DC, I generally bring my own.
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Wine's share of on-premise alcohol sales is indeed down and still declining per SipSource, which is a huge database of wholesale depletions. The data is skewed towards big wholesalers, but probably at least roughly indicative.
 
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Actually, that is probably just under 3X retail, which is, alas, practically the new restaurant standard. Other entries are more than 3X. I really don't know how restaurants sell wine anymore. In DC, I generally bring my own.
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Retail is $50.

This is 3 x wholesale, which is indeed the standard for wines in that price range.
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The norm in NYC or rather lower than average? Cheap wine in Oslo restaurants is marked up 5x retail while, say, Dauvissat 1er cru chablis is less than half of what you would pay in Manhattan in a restaurant.
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Fascinating; I've seen sliding scale on-premise markups, but never quite to that wide a variation. 5x retail seems to echo the "first glass pays for the bottle" approach, quite popular for by-the-glass programs.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by VLM:

The internet, and social media especially, have really pushed the velocity of information and narrowed and specified what is "cool"...
Click to expand...

What is the comparison? Pre-internet, my understanding was that there was an even narrower set of wine regions and wines that got broad attention?

Yes, there is a winner-take-all dynamic to the social media world. But, winner of targeted 'niche' audiences, because there are so many more (wine) subcultures these days. At least that's my impression.
Click to expand...

Well, I don't really have any pre-internet evidence as my extensive travels in France didn't start until 1996 (but there wasn't much internet in 1996).

I don't have a good answer for you since these kinds of social dynamics are outside of my area of expertise, but I can offer an anecdote. Last night I was at a restaurant with very well priced Selosse, Rousseau, Raveneau, Overnoy, and Mirroirs among others. I was very tempted by the Selosse, Overnoy, and Mirroirs and we discussed what "insta kids" would have done. We ended up drinking aged Bongran Levroute, Dard & Ribo Crozes blanc and a beautiful Gramenon Pascal. We had a great time and one of our best meals in France and the wines all showed fabulously and were great with the food. The wines we chose were cool, IMO, but not insta cool the way those others were.

I would never post about this restaurant or probably tell anyone about it because it would take maybe a year for the list to get destroyed.

We weren't the only tourists but we were the only non-French people in the restaurant.

We took most of our "cherries" off the list at Rue and I've been thinking about how to solve the issue of wine list ravaging. Maybe have a reserve list again and limit it to 1 bottle per table from that list per visit but that gives a policing burden to my staff. The only other option is to price those wines to market, but I don't love that solution either. You have to do so much work to get just a few bottles of these wines and you hope to be able to spread it around to multiple guests. Anyway, first world problems that seem pretty stupid alongside the news of the day.

Note: I don't want to hoard all these experiences for myself and I do want to acknowledge that some of this is a simple side effect of social media that had I lived in a different time I would maybe be exactly like that.
 
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by VLM:

The internet, and social media especially, have really pushed the velocity of information and narrowed and specified what is "cool"...
Click to expand...

What is the comparison? Pre-internet, my understanding was that there was an even narrower set of wine regions and wines that got broad attention?

Yes, there is a winner-take-all dynamic to the social media world. But, winner of targeted 'niche' audiences, because there are so many more (wine) subcultures these days. At least that's my impression.
Click to expand...

Well, I don't really have any pre-internet evidence as my extensive travels in France didn't start until 1996 (but there wasn't much internet in 1996).

I don't have a good answer for you since these kinds of social dynamics are outside of my area of expertise, but I can offer an anecdote. Last night I was at a restaurant with very well priced Selosse, Rousseau, Raveneau, Overnoy, and Mirroirs among others. I was very tempted by the Selosse, Overnoy, and Mirroirs and we discussed what "insta kids" would have done. We ended up drinking aged Bongran Levroute, Dard & Ribo Crozes blanc and a beautiful Gramenon Pascal. We had a great time and one of our best meals in France and the wines all showed fabulously and were great with the food. The wines we chose were cool, IMO, but not insta cool the way those others were.

I would never post about this restaurant or probably tell anyone about it because it would take maybe a year for the list to get destroyed.

We weren't the only tourists but we were the only non-French people in the restaurant.

We took most of our "cherries" off the list at Rue and I've been thinking about how to solve the issue of wine list ravaging. Maybe have a reserve list again and limit it to 1 bottle per table from that list per visit but that gives a policing burden to my staff. The only other option is to price those wines to market, but I don't love that solution either. You have to do so much work to get just a few bottles of these wines and you hope to be able to spread it around to multiple guests. Anyway, first world problems that seem pretty stupid alongside the news of the day.

Note: I don't want to hoard all these experiences for myself and I do want to acknowledge that some of this is a simple side effect of social media that had I lived in a different time I would maybe be exactly like that.
Click to expand...

I went to a wonderful restaurant in Germany called Purs. The Wine Director has a notebook and every day he hand writes a reserve list of several wines for that night and gives the notebook to only a few people.

He greeted with so your the guy every famous winemaker in Germany has called me about here is the notebook.
 
originally posted by Robert Dentice:
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by VLM:

The internet, and social media especially, have really pushed the velocity of information and narrowed and specified what is "cool"...
Click to expand...

What is the comparison? Pre-internet, my understanding was that there was an even narrower set of wine regions and wines that got broad attention?

Yes, there is a winner-take-all dynamic to the social media world. But, winner of targeted 'niche' audiences, because there are so many more (wine) subcultures these days. At least that's my impression.
Click to expand...

Well, I don't really have any pre-internet evidence as my extensive travels in France didn't start until 1996 (but there wasn't much internet in 1996).

I don't have a good answer for you since these kinds of social dynamics are outside of my area of expertise, but I can offer an anecdote. Last night I was at a restaurant with very well priced Selosse, Rousseau, Raveneau, Overnoy, and Mirroirs among others. I was very tempted by the Selosse, Overnoy, and Mirroirs and we discussed what "insta kids" would have done. We ended up drinking aged Bongran Levroute, Dard & Ribo Crozes blanc and a beautiful Gramenon Pascal. We had a great time and one of our best meals in France and the wines all showed fabulously and were great with the food. The wines we chose were cool, IMO, but not insta cool the way those others were.

I would never post about this restaurant or probably tell anyone about it because it would take maybe a year for the list to get destroyed.

We weren't the only tourists but we were the only non-French people in the restaurant.

We took most of our "cherries" off the list at Rue and I've been thinking about how to solve the issue of wine list ravaging. Maybe have a reserve list again and limit it to 1 bottle per table from that list per visit but that gives a policing burden to my staff. The only other option is to price those wines to market, but I don't love that solution either. You have to do so much work to get just a few bottles of these wines and you hope to be able to spread it around to multiple guests. Anyway, first world problems that seem pretty stupid alongside the news of the day.

Note: I don't want to hoard all these experiences for myself and I do want to acknowledge that some of this is a simple side effect of social media that had I lived in a different time I would maybe be exactly like that.
Click to expand...

He greeted with so your the guy every famous winemaker in Germany has called me about here is the notebook.
Click to expand...

In days of yore, the Poliburo might have tagged this comment as immoderate or perhaps violating the unwritten rule of not touting one's self-importance (or for being a bit Plotnicki-like). BTW, it is "you're" not "your." -:)
 
originally posted by mark e:

In days of yore, the Poliburo might have tagged this comment as immoderate or perhaps violating the unwritten rule of not touting one's self-importance (or for being a bit Plotnicki-like). BTW, it is "you're" not "your." -:)
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good sir, you've identified an infraction but alas the wrong one

this is a relatively minor offense that, per politburo doctrine, merely requires an itb disclaimer
 
For the sake of search purity, which Callahan demanded, it's Miroirs. Mirroirs is Franglais. (I don't wish to be emulating Callahan or the late School Marm, but some people might not recognize the wine and have trouble finding info about it.)
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by VLM:

The internet, and social media especially, have really pushed the velocity of information and narrowed and specified what is "cool"...
Click to expand...

What is the comparison? Pre-internet, my understanding was that there was an even narrower set of wine regions and wines that got broad attention?

Yes, there is a winner-take-all dynamic to the social media world. But, winner of targeted 'niche' audiences, because there are so many more (wine) subcultures these days. At least that's my impression.
Click to expand...
Assuming without conceding that it was qualitatively different in those days, about the only thing people would have cleared out from a restaurant wine list was Pétrus, and if offered at extraordinary prices, other Bordeaux first growths and maybe DRC. The huge demand for Rousseau, Dujac, Ponsot, and maybe a few others (the first wave of super price runups) was created by Rudy Kurniawan.

As for other wine regions, they did get attention (one of the positive things to be said about Robert M. Parker, Jr.), it's just that the general level of quality usually wasn't that interesting, and for the leaders (e.g., Giacosa, Mascarello, Cappellano, Chave, Gentaz, Verset, Clape, Allemand, Rayas, etc.), there just wasn't that much demand -- those in the know bought them, but the prestige seekers didn't.
 
originally posted by VLM:
...I was at a restaurant with very well priced Selosse, Rousseau, Raveneau, Overnoy, and Mirroirs among others. I was very tempted by the Selosse, Overnoy, and Mirroirs and we discussed what "insta kids" would have done. We ended up drinking aged Bongran Levroute, Dard & Ribo Crozes blanc and a beautiful Gramenon Pascal. We had a great time and one of our best meals in France and the wines all showed fabulously and were great with the food. The wines we chose were cool, IMO, but not insta cool the way those others were.
Click to expand...

Cool is subjective. Dard & Ribo was the cool new wine 20 years ago, so maybe it's a generational thing and in another 20 years the current "insta kids" will be drinking Miroirs and lamenting the latest entrants.

...how to solve the issue of wine list ravaging. Maybe have a reserve list again and limit it to 1 bottle per table from that list per visit but that gives a policing burden to my staff. The only other option is to price those wines to market, but I don't love that solution either. You have to do so much work to get just a few bottles of these wines and you hope to be able to spread it around to multiple guests...
Click to expand...

As it was recently discussed in the thread about N&S and their persnickety list, this is a thorny issue with no easy answers. It's also fascinating because it reveals so much about what a restaurant values and how it chooses to engage capitalism.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
...the leaders (e.g., Giacosa, Mascarello, Cappellano, Chave, Gentaz, Verset, Clape, Allemand, Rayas, etc.), there just wasn't that much demand -- those in the know bought them, but the prestige seekers didn't.
Click to expand...

As you noted with RMP, to the extent that high-quality producers get the returns that their work 'deserves', there are benefits to information being spread more widely and more quickly.

But on the social media front, this mirrors the broader discussion about whether platforms have just become dominated by big players who take all. I don't think it's quite the same as in the 1950s when there were 3 tv channels and 3 superstars. But it's also not democratic tech utopia...
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:

But on the social media front, this mirrors the broader discussion about whether platforms have just become dominated by big players who take all. I don't think it's quite the same as in the 1950s when there were 3 tv channels and 3 superstars. But it's also not democratic tech utopia...
Click to expand...
It's clearly different because of the leverage that social media give. Parker may have increased the price in a short time by 2-8x, but that's trivial compared to what social media have done.
 
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