Wine list rant/vent

[Rahsaan]

Perusing a 150+ page wine list ahead of a dinner, and these folks divide the wines into three main categories: fruit, terroir, and signature. Naturally, some producers fall into multiple categories, depending on the specific cuvee. How does that benefit anyone?!

This is clearly maddening for folks like us, who prefer to see things organized by region and producer. But how is the average punter supposed to navigate these categories, without any clue of the difference between fruit and terroir, let alone 'signature'!

The restaurant has been around for 7+ years and lots of good things on the list, so I guess they're selling wines. But all the more reason to have gotten feedback by now that this system is not helpful! Or maybe I'm out of touch... Or maybe both things are simultaneously true...

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Rahsaan:
Wine list rant/ventPerusing a 150+ page wine list ahead of a dinner, and these folks divide the wines into three main categories: fruit, terroir, and signature. Naturally, some producers fall into multiple categories, depending on the specific cuvee. How does that benefit anyone?!

This is clearly maddening for folks like us, who prefer to see things organized by region and producer. But how is the average punter supposed to navigate these categories, without any clue of the difference between fruit and terroir, let alone 'signature'!

The restaurant has been around for 7+ years and lots of good things on the list, so I guess they're selling wines. But all the more reason to have gotten feedback by now that this system is not helpful! Or maybe I'm out of touch... Or maybe both things are simultaneously true...

Yeah, that is confusing. Plus, what the hell is signature? I am assuming this is explained on the first page of the list (or someone explains it)? As far as folks like us preferring the list arranged by region and producer, I can't say that I do. But I also did several lists that had non-traditional arrangements.

But with a 150-page list, there really is no choice except geography/appellation and then producer. But imagine having some wines from a given producer under the "fruit" section and others under "terroir." That's nuts. But short lists can get away with a lot more, as long as it is explained.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by mark e:

Yeah, that is confusing. Plus, what the hell is signature? I am assuming this is explained on the first page of the list (or someone explains it)?

Well, this is their in-house English translation of the explanation for Signature wines, but it doesn't help clarify much for me (and I don't expect it would do more for a casual wine drinker). Do the producers really not have a plan for their 'terroir' bottlings!

(A wide range of stuff is in this 'Signature' category, including Ulysse Colin, Larmandier-Bernier, Beurer, Zieriesen, Koehler Ruprecht dry wines, and many others)

Signature wines
Because wine is more than just fermented grape juice, an unsigned wine simply cannot be a good wine.

A wine is subject to influences in its care in both the vineyards and the cellar. And far from a purely natural product, it is a monoculture, and as such an intrusion into nature. The winemaker is thus responsible for keeping this intrusion as gentle and considered as possible. He must answer a number of philosophical questions: How do I want to grow my grapes, what principles will I pursue and what practices will I utilize in the cellar, knowing that I have been given but one chance a year to harvest this valuable material? What’s needed is a plan, an idea, in short, a signature.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by mark e:
As far as folks like us preferring the list arranged by region and producer, I can't say that I do.

Interesting. What is your preference for how lists should be arranged?

I guess very succinct (one-page) lists can go by price. But I suspect you are thinking of something else.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by mark e:

Yeah, that is confusing. Plus, what the hell is signature? I am assuming this is explained on the first page of the list (or someone explains it)?

Well, this is their in-house English translation of the explanation for Signature wines, but it doesn't help clarify much for me (and I don't expect it would do more for a casual wine drinker). Do the producers really not have a plan for their 'terroir' bottlings!

(A wide range of stuff is in this 'Signature' category, including Ulysse Colin, Larmandier-Bernier, Beurer, Zieriesen, Koehler Ruprecht dry wines, and many others)

Signature wines

What’s needed is a plan, an idea, in short, a signature.

Meaningless. So the wines made without a plan go into the other two categories? Did you read the original (in German?) to see if it made more sense?

 

[fatboy]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by mark e:

Yeah, that is confusing. Plus, what the hell is signature? I am assuming this is explained on the first page of the list (or someone explains it)?

Well, this is their in-house English translation of the explanation for Signature wines, but it doesn't help clarify much for me (and I don't expect it would do more for a casual wine drinker). Do the producers really not have a plan for their 'terroir' bottlings!

given they put pacalet in the 'terroir' section, dudes are either trolling or playing it for teh lols.

fb.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by mark e:
As far as folks like us preferring the list arranged by region and producer, I can't say that I do.

Interesting. What is your preference for how lists should be arranged?

I guess very succinct (one-page) lists can go by price. But I suspect you are thinking of something else.

Never by price. That is certainly my last choice and really makes no sense whatsoever to clue the diner into what the wines might be like.

In one list, I arranged the wines by flavor and/or type (bubbles and pinot noir had their own categories). It was perhaps a hybrid, but then I listed the wines within the category by weight - lightest to heaviest. Sure, it was a bit arbitrary, but not entirely. In a single- (or two-) page list it can work and gives people more information than terroir and signature.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by fatboy:

given they put pacalet in the 'terroir' section, dudes are either trolling or playing it for teh lols.

fb.

I wonder. I would have guessed that they actually believe in the typology. You meet all sorts of people in the wine world with philosophies that only make sense to themselves (including me). But maybe they are operating on another level with their commentary!

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by mark e:

In one list, I arranged the wines by flavor and/or type (bubbles and pinot noir had their own categories). It was perhaps a hybrid, but then I listed the wines within the category by weight - lightest to heaviest. Sure, it was a bit arbitrary, but not entirely. In a single- (or two-) page list it can work and gives people more information than terroir and signature.

As you say, subjective, which is what frustrates me because it adds friction to my experience as I try to sort through the categories. But not a huge deal with a one or two page list. And when well-done, I'm sure it can be of service to the casual consumer.

Goes without saying that anything makes more sense than terroir vs. signature.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by fatboy:

given they put pacalet in the 'terroir' section, dudes are either trolling or playing it for teh lols.

fb.

But maybe they are operating on another level with their commentary!

Look, when you are operating a business engaged in selling food and wine, this sort of cryptic shit is the epitome of fatuity.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

There is no excuse.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

I so hate it when lists show wines in ascending order of price. In descending order would at least show a sense of humor.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

Rahsaan, how's the food menu organized there?

 

[BJ]

originally posted by fatboy:

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by mark e:

Yeah, that is confusing. Plus, what the hell is signature? I am assuming this is explained on the first page of the list (or someone explains it)?

Well, this is their in-house English translation of the explanation for Signature wines, but it doesn't help clarify much for me (and I don't expect it would do more for a casual wine drinker). Do the producers really not have a plan for their 'terroir' bottlings!

given they put pacalet in the 'terroir' section, dudes are either trolling or playing it for teh lols.

fb.

hey, brett and va is the new oak. naturally!

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
Rahsaan, how's the food menu organized there?

Ha!

They are known for being a bit precious/pretentious with their 'radical' hipster localism. I don't expect to perfectly vibe with their vibe. But the food is supposed to be good, there are some good things to drink, and I will be in good company. I expect to enjoy myself!

 

[Rahsaan]

Drinks list is here, for those who want to chuckle at the attitude. While also respecting the non-US pricing!

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by Rahsaan:
the food

this is getting increasingly ridiculous by the minute

thanks for the entertainment, man

 

[MarkS]

This is the point where you say "I'll take a bottle of the vegan water".

 

[MarkS]

originally posted by Rahsaan:
Drinks list is here, for those who want to chuckle at the attitude. While also respecting the non-US pricing!

At least it's bilingual!

 

[Tristan Welles]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
Rahsaan, how's the food menu organized there?

Ha!

They are known for being a bit precious/pretentious with their 'radical' hipster localism. I don't expect to perfectly vibe with their vibe. But the food is supposed to be good, there are some good things to drink, and I will be in good company. I expect to enjoy myself!

I didn't see the wanker section.

Oh, you say that everything falls under wanker?

The place actually called itself Nobelhart and Schmutzig? That's more twee than the deleted scenes from the next Wes Anderson movie.