Wine list rant/vent

originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by mark e:

Yeah, that is confusing. Plus, what the hell is signature? I am assuming this is explained on the first page of the list (or someone explains it)?
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Well, this is their in-house English translation of the explanation for Signature wines, but it doesn't help clarify much for me (and I don't expect it would do more for a casual wine drinker). Do the producers really not have a plan for their 'terroir' bottlings!
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given they put pacalet in the 'terroir' section, dudes are either trolling or playing it for teh lols.

fb.
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Easy to to track down the "logic" isn't it? "reputed producer" + "bojo" = terroir.
 
They are obviously in the business of salesmanship of their product. Perhaps the format of their list reflects, rightly or wrongly, their assessment of their audience?

. . . . . . . Pete
 
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by mark e:
As far as folks like us preferring the list arranged by region and producer, I can't say that I do.
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Interesting. What is your preference for how lists should be arranged?

I guess very succinct (one-page) lists can go by price. But I suspect you are thinking of something else.
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Never by price. That is certainly my last choice and really makes no sense whatsoever to clue the diner into what the wines might be like.

In one list, I arranged the wines by flavor and/or type (bubbles and pinot noir had their own categories). It was perhaps a hybrid, but then I listed the wines within the category by weight - lightest to heaviest. Sure, it was a bit arbitrary, but not entirely. In a single- (or two-) page list it can work and gives people more information than terroir and signature.
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That arrangement suits me well. Also, the first two things most consumers want to know about a wine appear to be sweetness level and intensity/weight.
 
Good grief. It looks to me like fruity-terroir-signature intends what we might call fruity-minerally-culty. Certainly, on a quick read, that's the way the average price in each category trends... upward.

AND, despite all this airy persiflage, they don't use "varietal" correctly.
 
originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
originally posted by Rahsaan:
the food
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this is getting increasingly ridiculous by the minute

thanks for the entertainment, man
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Looks like the absurd use of the singular in menus, so popular in the US, has taken hold here, too (e.g., Jerusalem artichoke / Caraway seed). It would be quite a tiny dish if there were only one of each.
 
The organization of the list is a mess, but if you are willing to spend the time to sift through it, there certainly are plenty of wines on the list worth paying list price to drink while enjoying (hopefully!) your meal and dining companions' company. And at least they make the list available online so that you don't have to spend your time at the table trying to figure it all out.

I did notice that they include on the list a number of highly sought after wines that are marked as "maturing" in lieu of a price, which presumably means they would like those particular bottles to mature longer before selling them. Yet they still choose to put them on the list, instead of simply resting contentedly with the knowledge that they have those wines in the cellar and they need more time. Does this imply that if you strike the right notes in your conversation with the server or sommelier and make a worthy choice for your first bottle of the evening, you might be rewarded with the opportunity to buy one or more of the "maturing" wines, should you wish to do so? Or is it merely one more pretentious aspect of this list, a sort of in-your-face bragging about the wines that they have access to but which you, the diner, may not drink (unless, perhaps, you return in a year or two, should you be so lucky)?
 
originally posted by Michael Lewis:

...if you strike the right notes in your conversation with the server or sommelier and make a worthy choice for your first bottle of the evening, you might be rewarded with the opportunity to buy one or more of the "maturing" wines, should you wish to do so? Or is it merely one more pretentious aspect of this list...
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Yes, that seemed like a very pretentious flex.

Elsewhere on the list, you may have noticed that they reserve the right to restrict purchases of certain wines to 1 bottle per group. I'm not sure if that's a flat policy, I'm guessing it depends on who the customer is.

You may have also noticed that their corkage policy is 'flexible' depending on what the sommelier thinks of the wine you bring. More 'impressive' bottles will have lower corkage. But not sure how objective or uniform they are about that policy.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Michael Lewis:

...if you strike the right notes in your conversation with the server or sommelier and make a worthy choice for your first bottle of the evening, you might be rewarded with the opportunity to buy one or more of the "maturing" wines, should you wish to do so? Or is it merely one more pretentious aspect of this list...
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Yes, that seemed like a very pretentious flex.

Elsewhere on the list, you may have noticed that they reserve the right to restrict purchases of certain wines to 1 bottle per group. I'm not sure if that's a flat policy, I'm guessing it depends on who the customer is.

You may have also noticed that their corkage policy is 'flexible' depending on what the sommelier thinks of the wine you bring. More 'impressive' bottles will have lower corkage. But not sure how objective or uniform they are about that policy.
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Wankfest. I hope you can simply choose the food and wine you want without them telling you «yes, we have that, but you can’t have it.»

It is something Chadderton used to do back in the day, for those who remember.
 
originally posted by mark e:

Looks like the absurd use of the singular in menus, so popular in the US, has taken hold here, too (e.g., Jerusalem artichoke / Caraway seed). It would be quite a tiny dish if there were only one of each.
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Perhaps they limit you to one, since artichoke is the wine killer? Nah...
 
originally posted by mark e:

Wankfest. I hope you can simply choose the food and wine you want without them telling you «yes, we have that, but you can’t have it.»
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Indeed. It's a tricky line to take and can slip into wankerdom.

But, I must say that the broader philosophy of not having everything available just for the highest bidder does have its merits (especially when you are not likely to be the highest bidder).

I think all of us here have probably benefited from European retailers who don't merely offer things to the latest guy who showed up with a stack of cash looking to buy the Most Points. And there is value in people earning their access through appreciation.

Of course it can also slip into wankerdom.

My judgment of this particular restaurant will be based on the objective and pure metric of how they treat me!
 
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
I did notice that they include on the list a number of highly sought after wines that are marked as "maturing" in lieu of a price, which presumably means they would like those particular bottles to mature longer before selling them. Yet they still choose to put them on the list, instead of simply resting contentedly with the knowledge that they have those wines in the cellar and they need more time. Does this imply that if you strike the right notes in your conversation with the server or sommelier and make a worthy choice for your first bottle of the evening, you might be rewarded with the opportunity to buy one or more of the "maturing" wines, should you wish to do so? Or is it merely one more pretentious aspect of this list, a sort of in-your-face bragging about the wines that they have access to but which you, the diner, may not drink (unless, perhaps, you return in a year or two, should you be so lucky)?
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This is not uncommon practice in France. I interpret it (perhaps wrongly) as their way of saying that they are "important" enough to be able to obtain that wine, but that they don't want to sell it right now. I find it irritating, and it would be better if they just kept it off the list until they are ready to offer the wine.
 
I get all the comments about wankery. And the owner indeed has some potentially irritating traits. But he is a real character (I have only met him outside his restaurant) and given the wine lists we see in the vast majority of restaurants (including a lot with pretty good food) in Germany, I happily will go to N&S on my next trip to Berlin. From what I hear it is usually a perfectly pleasant experience.
 
Clearly the list should be interactive. Underlying data should have all the necessary attributes in order for the diner to organize the list by any available category. Obviously they don't need to view the whole list either, and should be able to select via a criterion of choice, e.g. variety=grolleau. If they must.

Your entire table at Clo wine bar (closed) inside Time Warner towers on Columbus Circle was a touch screen that allowed you to view the list. Navigation was fixed, however.
 
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