Premox
- Thread starter Florida Jim
- Start date
Eden Mylunsch
Eden Mylunsch
I pretend expertise all the time and look how far it's taken me! Some people think of me as a big shot wine salesperson! Personally, I like wax capsules. They imply classy wine, and that makes it easier to sell to people who aren't sure whether they're supposed to like screw caps yet. But depending on the color of the wax, when it's dripping off of less expensive bottles it makes me feel like I'm drinking Raveneau or Sine Qua Non (after the fourth bottle of the night, who's to know?) My preference is for the softer wax (like Lapierre) but not the hard wax that gets all over the tablecloth and in my vichyssoise, which wouldn't be a problem if it were white wax, but who the hell uses white wax? And who the hell eats vichyssoise these days? First world problems indeed.
But I digress. Monsieur Lamy's posit regarding wax being a better closure (or at least offering a more complete closure, similar to that felt after my second divorce from my first husband) makes sense. I once snagged some wines out of a San Diego dentist's collection that he'd stored in a passive cellar for many, many years. He'd sealed each capsule in wax, stating that he'd studied the matter and felt that wax would allow the bottle to age longer and more slowly if it wasn't relying solely on the integrity of the cork and the wine's original capsule. I've got a bottle of 1959 JJ Prüm Wehlener Sonenuhr BA that's on my list of wines to open when I receive word that there's a comet headed our way that'll blast us to smithereens, or maybe that the Russkies are attacking Grover Beach and are on their way to Huasna and I'd better get drinking (don't worry, I'll try to post notes). Even though the Prüm is the color of a RC Cola in an antique mall, I reckon that's probably what it's supposed to look like by now anyway, so I'm not panicking or anything (the sugar abides, don't it?!)
But more to the point (yeah, about freakin' time, harrummph), I was intrigued by his (Lamy's) thinking about the problem possibly being caused by harvesting riper fruit and being too gentle handling the grapes during pressing and the must in the overall élevage. If this were the case, wouldn't there be a LOT more premox in wine coming from other wine regions? I mean, they use the ultra-modern presses in California and the fruit comes in pretty ripe (compared to most of northern Europe), so why are we not plagued with premoxed Chardonnays and Sauvignon Blancs here in the Golden State? Do our winemakers work better in warmer climates? Maybe it's because our grapes are more manly than those grown in France and can handle a little more "winemaking technique," be it gentle or rough? And if people aren't aging their Carneros Sylvaners anyway, is it a problem anywhere other than here or on the BurgHound board?
I do gotta say I respect and admire the fact that Lamy is making the effort to figure the situation out. He's got cajones as big as his curiosity. What if the experiment fails and he winds up with a bunch of bottles of well, pre-moxed Chardonnay that eveyone knows is bad before they're put up for sale? Do you know what Burgundy costs these days? He might not be able to afford to keep his Citroen on the road. And what about the potential cost to his reputation if the experiment fails? There's some serious kale at stake here and even though using the DIAM corks minimizes the risk, it's still dangerous waters being treaded here. And even if he's right about wax solving the issue, will other winemakers follow along?
-Eden (rest assured that I don't in any way buy into the "more wax means klassier wine" thing, so don't look to me to provide you with back vintages of Belle Glos from my cellar)
Florida Jim
Florida Jim
Eden,
‘Always enjoy reading your soliloquies and truly wish I had the code to figuring out what they mean . . .
I watched a winemaker in CA press his Chardonnay into the press pan and then pump it over and over out of and back into the pan for long enough that the juice turned brown (like gravy brown). Then he barreled it down, inoculated and fermented in barrel until dry. The finished wine was crystal clear, quite good and has had no problems since bottling (this was in 2014). He said it was the way to beat premox.
Maybe.
One year, I had Sauvignon Blanc fermenting in barrel and it started to turn brown. So I aerated each barrel every day and the finished wine was brilliant.
Maybe.
I’m pretty sure these incidents are not cures to the problem but they were instructive. At least in CA.
About 60 years ago, Claude Kolm and I had lunch and discussed premox. Neither of us could figure out what the hell was going on.
I’m sure there are lots of factors involved, and that Lamy has some extended experience with the problem.
But fucking wax capsules?
C’mon man.
Jim
‘Always enjoy reading your soliloquies and truly wish I had the code to figuring out what they mean . . .
I watched a winemaker in CA press his Chardonnay into the press pan and then pump it over and over out of and back into the pan for long enough that the juice turned brown (like gravy brown). Then he barreled it down, inoculated and fermented in barrel until dry. The finished wine was crystal clear, quite good and has had no problems since bottling (this was in 2014). He said it was the way to beat premox.
Maybe.
One year, I had Sauvignon Blanc fermenting in barrel and it started to turn brown. So I aerated each barrel every day and the finished wine was brilliant.
Maybe.
I’m pretty sure these incidents are not cures to the problem but they were instructive. At least in CA.
About 60 years ago, Claude Kolm and I had lunch and discussed premox. Neither of us could figure out what the hell was going on.
I’m sure there are lots of factors involved, and that Lamy has some extended experience with the problem.
But fucking wax capsules?
C’mon man.
Jim
Pavel Tchichikov
Pavel Tchichikov
Anecdotal evidence in one man's cellar has singled out one producer in Chablis whose one particular vintage has yielded zero premoxed bottles under wax. In other words, there is no statistically significant evidence to speak of.
That said, Disorder continues to be an invaluable resource for self-discovery. It wasn't until a few minutes ago that I have diagnosed my odd and irrational aversion to the softer wax, via a subconscious association with Lapierre.
That said, Disorder continues to be an invaluable resource for self-discovery. It wasn't until a few minutes ago that I have diagnosed my odd and irrational aversion to the softer wax, via a subconscious association with Lapierre.
Eden Mylunsch
Eden Mylunsch
Perfect White Burgundy is a unicorn wine and the intrinsic value of any given bottle is that it's all about mythology writ large (and sometimes that writing's barely even legible after a couple of bottles of research). We all wanna boldly go where no man has gone before a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, but really, once you get past the excitement (and expectations) of "let's kill that Batard after we wreck that Chevy!!," what more is there to talk about when it comes to White Burgundy? I mean, there's premox and then there's "it costs too goddamn much" and we can't do anything about the latter so that leaves the former. About the only people I know drinking White Burgundy on a regular basis are billionaires, and even they drink their Premier Cru during the week and save the Grand Cru bottles for the weekend because even for them, perched at such a lofty level of resources, it's too damn expensive when it's not a "special occasion." (like: "it's Saturday. That's special enough, right? We'll drink the Romanée-St-Vivant and watch 'Saturday Night Live' while eating truffled potato chips and vienna sausages.")
But the beauty of premox is that it's the great equalizer. It can affect M“con and it can affect Montrachet, just doing its part to create some common grounds for discussion between the punters and the punted. And occasionally both strata get together to drink wine and talk about it and maybe the gazillionaires will enjoy a Pouilly-Fuisse and maybe the people who'll be paying off their student loans 22 years after they die will get to enjoy a bottle of White Burgundy that's worth more than their car and everyone will talk and think nice things about Chardonnay (singing "Kumbaya" is optional)
But back to Lamy...what if he's right and it really is something as simple as dipping bottles in wax to preserve the freshness? It's like that NYT column where people suffer these horrible, life-affecting maladies that nobody seems to be able to cure until some doctor comes along who did her residency in Timbuktu and knew right away that the patient's misery was caused by a bad haircut or too-tight shoes and six months later he's well on the road to recovery. Or like that Harlan Ellison short story "Crackpots" from "Paingod and Other Delusions" (well-worth tracking that one down). Or as Brother Dave Gardner put it, "It's all in how you look at it." Lamy just might be a genius for finding such a simple solution (if it is indeed the solution) and if not, he's still a genius for getting people to think about it and drink more White Burgundy when they might otherwise have been happy with plain old Chardonnay. But I'm a flack, and in my book the ends justify the means and it's okay if perception is more important than reality, and as Delbert McLinton sang: "It Ain't What You Eat But The Way How You Chew It."
And Jim, circling back around to the inital topic, my thinking is that if the rubes wandering the midway wanna put their quarters down for wax capsules, who am I to deny them the satisfaction of getting their money's worth?
-Eden (an oft-unrepentant violator of The Rule Of Three)
Florida Jim
Florida Jim
Brother Dave and Delbert in one paragraph.
My man!
My man!
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Priceless Eden
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
Jasper Morris has proposed that premox is just a transitional state and that the wines then self-correct after some time. My (limited) experience would confirm, and I've had at least one producer in Burgundy (not one who ever denied the existence of the pox) say that he was becoming convinced. Has anyone here suffered a premoxed bottle from, say, 2006 or before in the last year or two?
That aside, I've heard that John Gilman sold off all his (waxed capsule) Raveneaus because of premox.
As for producers who have switched to DIAM (e.g., Wm. Fèvre, Bouchard P&F, Lafon, Leflaive, de Montille, etc.), I see nary a report of premox.
That aside, I've heard that John Gilman sold off all his (waxed capsule) Raveneaus because of premox.
As for producers who have switched to DIAM (e.g., Wm. Fèvre, Bouchard P&F, Lafon, Leflaive, de Montille, etc.), I see nary a report of premox.
Tristan Welles
Tristan Welles
One more reason to call it random oxidation.
And considering the amount of broken yellow wax at the bottom of my wine locker, I have never been able to understand how wax capsules could ever protect Raveneau.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Brother Texier has told similar stories. So, also France.
Jayson Cohen
Jayson Cohen
Yep.
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
Jayson, it's unclear whether your agreeing with what I wrote or if you have had recent premoxed bottles from 2006 or before. If the latter, perhaps some details on the wine and when it was opened?
Jayson Cohen
Jayson Cohen
I was confirming premoxed bottles. I’ll try to catalog more completely. But certainly 1999 Matrot Perrieres (brilliant on release btw) I had with Sasha last December and 2004 Fevre Preuses (one bottle very good but maybe not as vibrant as it should have been, one DOA) last November come to mind readily.
Christian Miller (CMM)
Christian Miller
Something I still don't grasp about Premox: is it primarily an issue with white Burgundy? I read reports here and there about premoxed bottles from other regions, but nowhere near the frequency for Burgundy.
But on the other hand, it could just be that people talk about and write articles more on Burgundy, or are more alert to it as a specific issue when tasting Burgundy, or just consider it more newsworthy and irritating when a $50+ bottle is flawed.
But on the other hand, it could just be that people talk about and write articles more on Burgundy, or are more alert to it as a specific issue when tasting Burgundy, or just consider it more newsworthy and irritating when a $50+ bottle is flawed.
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
Also reported issues with white Bordeaux -- I've never experienced one. I've had advanced Frédéric Émile from Trimbach, although not full-out premox, as others have reported. So far, I've been lucky with my Huët. No problems with German whites.
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
Wasn't there a sub-narrative like this about one of the CA Chardonnays in The Judgment of Paris? Clear, then brown, then clear (without pumping over or additional aeration).
Who was the CA winemaker in your story, Jim?
Keith Levenberg
Keith Levenberg
+1 on experiencing premoxed bottles with ample bottle age, which would inevitably bring on retorts like, "Well, you can't call it PREM-ox anymore, the wine was just too old!" So it seems now we have the perfect pair of excuses - if oxidized, premox is a myth, it was just too old; if not oxidized, premox was just a phase, all is good now!
I will have to defer to the chemists but I'm not sure how a wine can go from oxidized to not-oxidized without violating the second law of thermodynamics.
There used to be an old chestnut that white Rhones go through a phase of tasting oxidized and then emerging fresh and non-oxidized. I have certainly had nasty oxidized white Rhones but can't say I've ever experienced the same wine years later magically free of it. In retrospect it seems far more likely that the Rhone and not Burgundy was actually Patient Zero for premox, and that the chestnut originated with wine writers tasting a slew of oxidized bottles of wines whose older vintages they knew were still in good shape. So they assumed it was a phase instead of supposing that a new problem had emerged.
Bottom line: Premox is a real thing with no solution evidenced to date other than Diams/screwcaps, and with way too much public speculation on possible causes from producers who manifestly don't understand it well enough to fix it (and aren't putting their money where their mouths are, either, since it's still almost exclusively consumers who have been footing the bill for this for the last 20-odd years)
I will have to defer to the chemists but I'm not sure how a wine can go from oxidized to not-oxidized without violating the second law of thermodynamics.
There used to be an old chestnut that white Rhones go through a phase of tasting oxidized and then emerging fresh and non-oxidized. I have certainly had nasty oxidized white Rhones but can't say I've ever experienced the same wine years later magically free of it. In retrospect it seems far more likely that the Rhone and not Burgundy was actually Patient Zero for premox, and that the chestnut originated with wine writers tasting a slew of oxidized bottles of wines whose older vintages they knew were still in good shape. So they assumed it was a phase instead of supposing that a new problem had emerged.
Bottom line: Premox is a real thing with no solution evidenced to date other than Diams/screwcaps, and with way too much public speculation on possible causes from producers who manifestly don't understand it well enough to fix it (and aren't putting their money where their mouths are, either, since it's still almost exclusively consumers who have been footing the bill for this for the last 20-odd years)
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
I disagree. I and many other people find premox to be different from standard oxidation in its aromas and flavors.
Being substantially older than you, I can testify that the dumb period used to be the case, but is not necessarily still the case. White Rhônes are much fresher these days -- altogether different wines from what we drank in the 1970s and 1980s. Clearly there have been changes in viniculture (and vitculture, including grape selection and timing of harvest) over the years.
Pavel Tchichikov
Pavel Tchichikov
there is no doubt
wine gods describe a premoxed bottle as a striking non-uniform evolution of its multiple components; those that would otherwise evolve in concert - either slowly at glamis castle or quickly in grandma's basement next to the boiler
but Keith makes an excellent point for the mortals among us