Keith Levenberg
Keith Levenberg
Much to unpack.
First, I'm not sure "subtle oxidative flavors becoming more obvious during a closed period" is a satisfactory explanation for wines that are burnt orange in color at age 4 and with oxidative flavors that are less like a piccolo solo and more like the Spinal Tap amp.
It is true, of course, that people have been observing oxidation in white Rhones (and saying it is a temporary phase) longer than anyone has ever so claimed in Burgundy (Claude's claim on this thread being the very first time I have *ever* seen the claim made as to Burgundy). It is also true that oxidized white Rhones and oxidized white Burgundies taste different. So the possibility remains that they are two different phenomena. Of course, oxidized Huet and oxidized white Burgundies also taste different, so that doesn't rule out that they are in fact part of the same phenomenon, either.
I'm confident I don't have nearly the same quantity of anecdotal data as Claude but given that age 11 was proffered as the state by which we can expect those previously nasty burnt-orange white Rhones to taste fresh again, I can certainly submit anecdotal data of bottles still being nasty, burnt orange, and oxidized at that point and well thereafter. Did I just need to wait longer? Were they premoxed? Simply bad wines? Is it a combination of factors (presumed "phase" obscuring data that would otherwise support premox diagnosis)? I actually don't have a strong opinion on the matter as to white Rhones and would not submit my experience as conclusive as to any explanation. I just have some Bayesian skepticism that a phenomenon not documented anywhere else (temporary oxidized phase) is a good explanation for observations documented almost everywhere else (nasty oxidized wine).
Obviously, however, my tangent into white Rhones proved a distraction and ruffled some feathers. So I'll just stipulate to some skeptical agnosticism on the matter and steer the car back to white Burgundy. If people are opening past poster-children for premoxed white Burgundy from the mid-'90s to mid-aughts and finding them fresh as a daisy now, please go ahead and post your data!
PS - Excuses for premox go back as long as premox itself. I can recall over the last two decades or so: "There's no premox, just random bad bottles"; "There's no premox in Europe, just bad provenance in the US"; "There's no premox, just wines that weren't ripe enough from day one" (thanks Pierre for that one); etc.; etc.; during which time white Burgundies have stubbornly refused to stop oxidizing, until put under Diam. We need fewer premox threads and more Diams.
First, I'm not sure "subtle oxidative flavors becoming more obvious during a closed period" is a satisfactory explanation for wines that are burnt orange in color at age 4 and with oxidative flavors that are less like a piccolo solo and more like the Spinal Tap amp.
It is true, of course, that people have been observing oxidation in white Rhones (and saying it is a temporary phase) longer than anyone has ever so claimed in Burgundy (Claude's claim on this thread being the very first time I have *ever* seen the claim made as to Burgundy). It is also true that oxidized white Rhones and oxidized white Burgundies taste different. So the possibility remains that they are two different phenomena. Of course, oxidized Huet and oxidized white Burgundies also taste different, so that doesn't rule out that they are in fact part of the same phenomenon, either.
I'm confident I don't have nearly the same quantity of anecdotal data as Claude but given that age 11 was proffered as the state by which we can expect those previously nasty burnt-orange white Rhones to taste fresh again, I can certainly submit anecdotal data of bottles still being nasty, burnt orange, and oxidized at that point and well thereafter. Did I just need to wait longer? Were they premoxed? Simply bad wines? Is it a combination of factors (presumed "phase" obscuring data that would otherwise support premox diagnosis)? I actually don't have a strong opinion on the matter as to white Rhones and would not submit my experience as conclusive as to any explanation. I just have some Bayesian skepticism that a phenomenon not documented anywhere else (temporary oxidized phase) is a good explanation for observations documented almost everywhere else (nasty oxidized wine).
Obviously, however, my tangent into white Rhones proved a distraction and ruffled some feathers. So I'll just stipulate to some skeptical agnosticism on the matter and steer the car back to white Burgundy. If people are opening past poster-children for premoxed white Burgundy from the mid-'90s to mid-aughts and finding them fresh as a daisy now, please go ahead and post your data!
PS - Excuses for premox go back as long as premox itself. I can recall over the last two decades or so: "There's no premox, just random bad bottles"; "There's no premox in Europe, just bad provenance in the US"; "There's no premox, just wines that weren't ripe enough from day one" (thanks Pierre for that one); etc.; etc.; during which time white Burgundies have stubbornly refused to stop oxidizing, until put under Diam. We need fewer premox threads and more Diams.
