The Price to Loss of Knowledge Ratio

[Brad Widelock]

I do not truly know what premier or grand cru Burgundy should taste like. By the time I had a serious interest in wine, these wines were unaffordable to me. I was one of those naive individuals who read Adventures on the Wine Route and walked into Kermit Lynch in Berkeley and expected to find the Burgundy I read about on the floor of store, readily available for purchase. Some were available, but all were more than I could afford.

Once I realized I was not leaving the store with bottles of Jobard or Jayer, I sheepishly purchased some village wines and a bottle of Chevillon Passetoutgrain. I did not immediately understand the village wines but I got bit by the Chevillon Passetoutgrain. Over the years I bought more of it and, for two or three years, a couple of bottles of Chevillon’s premier cru wines. I think they were about $75.00 each. I remember drinking one that was joyfully delicious. The others did not leave much of an impression on me. I have no doubt that the wines were good, but my lack of knowledge about Burgundy made it difficult to know why I was left underwhelmed.

At some point, I realized that I would never be able to afford enough Burgundy to acquire the knowledge that I wanted about what it should, and should not taste like. It’s not that I have not drunk Burgundy, just not enough to feel confident with it. I began to think about how much knowledge is lost when the cost of studying something is out of reach. There is no public library of wine to borrow, study and learn from. I want to find a way to preserve and share the knowledge about wine that I see being lost every day, primarily due to cost. You can only learn so much from reading about wine. There is no substitute for tasting with someone who has more knowledge than you do about what is in the glass.

By the time my financial situation improved, the price point of Burgundy moved so far out of reach that I gave up. I moved on to Chablis, Beaujolais and the Haut Cotes, Muscadet, and other European and American wines I want to find a way to preserve and share the knowledge about wine that I see being lost everyday.

 

[MLipton]

Brad, I understand your dilemma all too well. When I first discovered wine, California Cabernet sold for $10-15 a bottle and First Growth Bordeaux could be had for $30-$40 a bottle. Kermit’s Rhone producers all sold for $5-10, except for Chave Hermitage, which was a couple of bucks more. I was fortunate that I had enough income then as a BS chemist in industry to purchase a few bottles and lay them down. I was also lucky to find other wine lovers, mostly older than me, who’d amassed collections of their own and who liked to share. Even then, Burgundy seems priced out of reach. Only later, when I learned more, did I discover producers who weren’t priced out of reach (and my income had grown faster than the rate of inflation).

The secondary market can be your friend if you’re a contrarian. The label chasers will snatch up the DRC, Roumier, Jayer and Truchot now, but some other producers may still be affordable. Pre-auction tastings are also very educational. Joining forces with like-minded folks to purchase pricey wines collectively to try is another strategy. You may not be able to afford to own and cellar some of those wines but you can still educate your palate as to what these wines are like.

Mark Lipton
(Bottom-feeder extraordinaire)

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Brad Widelock:

I began to think about how much knowledge is lost when the cost of studying something is out of reach.

This is a very interesting sentence. I think many of us sympathize with the general outlook, as we are not the Brainless Billionaire demographic (if such a demo even exists).

But if I think a bit further, there are always costs to intense knowledge. So this comes back to whether privileges should go to those with the most dedication to connoisseurship, or those with the most funds. Certainly a lot simpler to structure markets around the later, alas.

originally posted by Brad Widelock:

I want to find a way to preserve and share the knowledge about wine that I see being lost everyday.

Yet here is where I get optimistic. I would wager that the amount of 'wine expertise' in the global population (if one could measure such a thing) is greater today than ever before. For all kinds of reasons: internet, democratization of the culture, global shipping, etc etc. Even if the wine world is not perfect or exactly how I would design it.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

this subject underlines why this community is better than most, if not all.

there are enough people here who continue to have sufficient exposure to the wines that have been out of reach for quite a while, and who recommend affordable wines for their superb quality in the context of everything they drink rather than just as good value.

 

[Florida Jim]

Your alternatives are mine, as well.
And they are just fine with me.
Life is adjustment.
Best, Jim.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Brad Widelock:
I began to think about how much knowledge is lost when the cost of studying something is out of reach.

But if I think a bit further, there are always costs to intense knowledge. So this comes back to whether privileges should go to those with the most dedication to connoisseurship, or those with the most funds. Certainly a lot simpler to structure markets around the latter, alas.

FIFY.
If you translate "privileges" as "access" then, yes, typically the most monied are the ones who have it. But this is a noetics discussion and those skills and interests are distributed without regard to wealth.
I think the most interesting question here is whether the knowledge considered by Brad is transitory (albeit at a slow rate of change) or immutable. An example:
- Exploration of the poles accelerated in the late 19th/early 20th C, requiring both connoisseurship (expeditioning skills) and capital. The details of what to pack and how to pack, how to steer the ships and how to trek overland, have all changed since then but the poles themselves continue to exist. Can we not say the same for the skills needed to bring great wine out of Chambertin?

originally posted by Brad Widelock:

I want to find a way to preserve and share the knowledge about wine that I see being lost everyday.

Yet here is where I get optimistic. I would wager that the amount of 'wine expertise' in the global population (if one could measure such a thing) is greater today than ever before. For all kinds of reasons: internet, democratization of the culture, global shipping, etc etc. Even if the wine world is not perfect or exactly how I would design it.

This answer is irrelevant. It is not important how many people play Chopsticks but how many people can play Chopin.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

originally posted by Rahsaan:

Yet here is where I get optimistic. I would wager that the amount of 'wine expertise' in the global population (if one could measure such a thing) is greater today than ever before. For all kinds of reasons: internet, democratization of the culture, global shipping, etc etc. Even if the wine world is not perfect or exactly how I would design it.

This answer is irrelevant. It is not important how many people play Chopsticks but how many people can play Chopin.

Irrelevant seems extreme. I am willing to accept a loss of refinement compared to feudal monarchies when wealthy young men and women received extensive training in music and art because they never had to earn their living.

But us modern folk are not all dullards who can only bang out Chopsticks. And these wine boards are a great example of people who are advanced well beyond Wine Chopsticks, but because of various other life commitments are not Chopin Wine Virtuosos. I think the population in the middle is greater than ever before. But this is pure conjecture.

As a social scientist, would be fun to measure this stuff! (And frankly, I'm sure someone has...)

 

[robert ames]

originally posted by MLipton:
Brad, I understand your dilemma all too well. When I first discovered wine, California Cabernet sold for $10-15 a bottle and First Growth Bordeaux could be had for $30-$40 a bottle. Kermit’s Rhone producers all sold for $5-10, except for Chave Hermitage, which was a couple of bucks more. I was fortunate that I had enough income then as a BS chemist in industry to purchase a few bottles and lay them down. I was also lucky to find other wine lovers, mostly older than me, who’d amassed collections of their own and who liked to share. Even then, Burgundy seems priced out of reach. Only later, when I learned more, did I discover producers who weren’t priced out of reach (and my income had grown faster than the rate of inflation).

The secondary market can be your friend if you’re a contrarian. The label chasers will snatch up the DRC, Roumier, Jayer and Truchot now, but some other producers may still be affordable. Pre-auction tastings are also very educational. Joining forces with like-minded folks to purchase pricey wines collectively to try is another strategy. You may not be able to afford to own and cellar some of those wines but you can still educate your palate as to what these wines are like.

Mark Lipton
(Bottom-feeder extraordinaire)

yes, but let's not let our good-old-days rose coloured glasses get too rosy. $10 in say 1975 is equal to $50+/- today. this would compute to $25 to $50 for kermit rhone wines today. yes, there are plenty way above that (vieux telegraphe, anyone), but in that price range good ones are not hard to come by.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by robert ames:

yes, but let's not let our good-old-days rose coloured glasses get too rosy. $10 in say 1975 is equal to $50+/- today. this would compute to $25 to $50 for kermit rhone wines today. yes, there are plenty way above that (vieux telegraphe, anyone), but in that price range good ones are not hard to come by.

Absolutely. Don't spend time worrying about what you're missing, celebrate what's available to you.

The big threat that's arriving isn't the price barrier for really good wine, but rather global warming.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Rahsaan:
Irrelevant seems extreme. I am willing to accept a loss of refinement compared to feudal monarchies when wealthy young men and women received extensive training in music and art because they never had to earn their living.

Straw man. There have been experts since the Middle Ages.

My point is that 'what is wine' and 'what is great wine' are moving targets, partly due to climate change, partly due to genetic drift of the cultivars, partly due to skills of the growers, partly due to the skills of materials scientists, and so on.

And these wine boards are a great example of people who are advanced well beyond Wine Chopsticks, but because of various other life commitments are not Chopin Wine Virtuosos.

I think people around here are well on their way to Rachmaninov and Scriabin.

 

[Jayson Cohen]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
this subject underlines why this community is better than most, if not all.

there are enough people here who continue to have sufficient exposure to the wines that have been out of reach for quite a while, and who recommend affordable wines for their superb quality in the context of everything they drink rather than just as good value.

Apropos, this morning I just bought another bottle of Guimaro Camino Real for a discounted price of $21. That’s just ridiculous. Should be more bottles available. See Manhattan Wine Co email offer.

 

[Jayson Cohen]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by robert ames:

yes, but let's not let our good-old-days rose coloured glasses get too rosy. $10 in say 1975 is equal to $50+/- today. this would compute to $25 to $50 for kermit rhone wines today. yes, there are plenty way above that (vieux telegraphe, anyone), but in that price range good ones are not hard to come by.

Absolutely. Don't spend time worrying about what you're missing, celebrate what's available to you.

The big threat that's arriving isn't the price barrier for really good wine, but rather global warming.

It’s arrived. ;(

 

[Eden Mylunsch]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Absolutely. Don't spend time worrying about what you're missing, celebrate what's available to you.

Exactly! When I worked at the KLWM retail shop in the late 90s my primary job was to be nice to the new customers who'd been inspired by "Adventures" and wanted to taste Chave, Coche, Raveneau, Clape, et al... I'd have to tell them that those wines were pretty much pre-allocated to longtime store customers who bought large quantities of wine throughout the year, but that we did have other producers whose wines were as good but hadn't yet been noticed by the outside world. Instead of Chave, I'd suggest a lesser-vintage-but-still-extraordinary bottle (or 12) of Gentaz-Dervieux we had case-stacked ($35/btl, but 20% off by the case to clear them out, which took over a year). I sold a lot of Savary Chablis and turned people on to Grange des Peres and the new Corsican wines Kermit had found on holiday. Vieux-Telegraphe was relatively available and relatively affordable, and I was evangelical about Charles Joguet Chinon Bourgueil from Breton and Chanteleuserie. As with Brad discovering Passetoutgrain, my go-to Burgundy substitute was of course the KLWM lineup of Cru Beajolais producers. I'd add my clients to a waiting list for allocations of the unicorn wines, and sometimes stray bottles would pop up and if they weren't snagged for the customers of my longer-tenured colleagues, I'd be able to make someone happy with a bottle here and there of an "important" wine (I'd also occasionally let them know that the wine they were seeking might possibly be found down the road at Premier Cru.)

Mr. Kolm is correct: nobody has to go thirsty for a lack of great wine these days. Maybe there's a brain drain of newly-acquired knowledge up at the unobtanium end of the wine spectrum due to billious billionaires buying up anything and everything that's rare and allocated, but I prefer to think of this creating more opportunities for people to get really geeky about wine regions that have been paid less attention to in the past. Discernment is becoming valued over points and over the past 20 years much has been written about regions producing wine that weren't seriously sought after (much less collected) before. You can't hardly swing a cat these days without knocking over a bottle of wine from Sicily, Austria, or Itata; this is tough if you're a cat, but not so bad for winelovers.

-Eden (all things being equal, I totally shoulda bought more Thierry Allemand back when I was getting the KLWM employee discount)

 

[Keith Levenberg]

Not sure why Brad is getting such pushback on this. It's a valid grievance. Imagine if you could never experience Mozart (not in the hall, not even on CD) without shelling out $20,000. But that's the tab on Romanee-Conti and the only difference is limitless supply vs. limited supply - and yes, the world would be poorer if you couldn't even *read* about Mozart except from people who either (1) pay the $20k or (2) have an influential enough position to accept a $20k bribe in the form of a comped tasting. And then imagine being told, "tough break, kid, but have you heard Salieri?"

On the separate matter of "we sell all our finest wines to great customers at prices so vastly below market we may as well just write them a $20k check every year instead, and sorry, that ain't gonna be you" - I do realize that's how the game is played, at least by most, but anyone who comes out and actually *tells* me this will never get another dollar of my business again. "Money insists on democracy... Anyone's cash is as good as anyone else's." --Salman Rushdie

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Not sure why Brad is getting such pushback on this. It's a valid grievance. Imagine if you could never experience Mozart (not in the hall, not even on CD) without shelling out $20,000. But that's the tab on Romanee-Conti and the only difference is limitless supply vs. limited supply - and yes, the world would be poorer if you couldn't even *read* about Mozart except from people who either (1) pay the $20k or (2) have an influential enough position to accept a $20k bribe in the form of a comped tasting. And then imagine being told, "tough break, kid, but have you heard Salieri?"

I don't think there's much pushback. I think we're all too familiar with the challenges of high-end wine costs!

I read it more as people expressing their different ways of coping with the challenge. And, there are some big structural differences between wine and music consumption.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Imagine if you could never experience Mozart (not in the hall, not even on CD) without shelling out $20,000. But that's the tab on Romanee-Conti and the only difference is limitless supply vs. limited supply - and yes, the world would be poorer if you couldn't even *read* about Mozart except from people who either (1) pay the $20k or (2) have an influential enough position to accept a $20k bribe in the form of a comped tasting. And then imagine being told, "tough break, kid, but have you heard Salieri?"

Too late. It's a little known fact that the Salieris had been on the Mozart writing team for several generations but were ultimately ousted by the shareholders. After initially acquiring full publishing and performance rights from an obscure second-rate early classical composer, they made inroads in the market with several original overblown opera buffa. Latest info from a major auction house source who wishes to remain anonymous is that getting to experience a Salieri opera will now set you back $22,049 compared to an even 20k you still need to shell out for Don Giovanni or Cosi fan tutte.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Eden Mylunsch:


Exactly! When I worked at the KLWM retail shop in the late 90s my primary job was to be nice to the new customers who'd been inspired by "Adventures" and wanted to taste Chave, Coche, Raveneau, Clape, et al... I'd have to tell them that those wines were pretty much pre-allocated to longtime store customers who bought large quantities of wine throughout the year, but that we did have other producers whose wines were as good but hadn't yet been noticed by the outside world. Instead of Chave, I'd suggest a lesser-vintage-but-still-extraordinary bottle (or 12) of Gentaz-Dervieux we had case-stacked ($35/btl, but 20% off by the case to clear them out, which took over a year).
-Eden (all things being equal, I totally shoulda bought more Thierry Allemand back when I was getting the KLWM employee discount)

Interesting. Even in the early 1980s, when I started as a regular customer there, I almost never or never was able to find Gentaz on the floor at Kermit's (and so what I had and still have was either bought in France or through gray market), but I sometimes saw Raveneau, Clape, Allemand, and, of course, Verset there.

 

[MarkS]

originally posted by Brad Widelock:
There is no public library of wine to borrow, study and learn from.

What a sparkling idea! I'll have to submit this to librarians I know for their thoughts.

 

[Eden Mylunsch]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Interesting. Even in the early 1980s, when I started as a regular customer there, I almost never or never was able to find Gentaz on the floor at Kermit's (and so what I had and still have was either bought in France or through gray market), but I sometimes saw Raveneau, Clape, Allemand, and, of course, Verset there.

Yeah, it does seem strange that bottles now worth the price of a house payment (well, maybe a townhouse on the dodgy side of town) were there for the buying back then.

When I arrived at KLWM around 1997 or so, sales of the 1992 and 1993 Gentaz were suffering due to the critics' dismissal of both vintages as being subpar and not worth cellaring. I was unfamiliar with the producer, but although it was a bit of palate reset for me (having previously worked in a Southern CA shop that sold a lot of new world wines), Michael Butler said they were really great examples of Cote-Rotie and who was I to argue with him? By that time, Clape Cornas would stay on the floor for a few weeks after release -- pre-arrival sales were good but Cornas was still thought of as the least of the Northern Rhône wine communes, and Verset was a little funkier than Clape so it would be available to the walk-in trade for a couple of months after release (albeit not at pre-arrival pricing). I don't recall Allemand or Raveneau on the floor, but they probably were there before I arrived.

-Eden (this is about the time that my collector's gene went dormant and I started buying things that I wanted to drink, rather than wines that would appreciate in value because they got big scores and were hard to get. That was my mistake in terms of my financial future/present, but then again, I coulda gone to law school and would thus be able to afford to buy Gentaz now at today's prices)

 

[Jim Hanlon]

originally posted by Eden Mylunsch:
That was my mistake in terms of my financial future/present, but then again, I coulda gone to law school and would thus be able to afford to buy Gentaz now at today's prices)

I did start law school in 1997, and still don't buy Gentaz at today's pricing. I've owned three bottles -- opened two years ago and sold the third. No regrets there. Do wish I'd bought more Verset, but I still have access to many great northern Rhone wines today. With Texier (which autocorrects on my MacBook to Sexier) and Gonon (made available at reasonable pricing), I'm not going to complain.