2007 Levet Côte-Rôtie La Chavaroche

originally posted by BJ:
Oh, and I'm going to be a definite counter voice on Graillot - I have yet to have a bottle that excites me. I just don't think he has the terroir. So many good nortern Crozes that have more going on a la St. Joseph.
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Huh. Don't have tons of experience with Graillot but have some, and it is precisely due to my affinity for "a la St. Joseph" a.k.a. baby hermitage profile that has got me preferring his basic bottling starting at 8 years of age or so. I get that its primary fruit has great appeal, but it's when it develops an interplay of the three-headed monster of violets, raspberry, and wet stone minerality that the stuff really kicks into gear.

A little surprised by this discussion in general. Will never deny that northern rhones don't close down like burg and brdx, and that they can be much fun early on. There is a small matter of texture though, although if you pair your syrah with roadkill then there is no need to read further. Texture is what makes syrah so important in the osteurocave, both for elaborately planned exploits in the kitchen and optimal pulls for various emerging BYO opportunities. It is certainly a simplification to say that the grape in the n.rhone delivers a penetrating mellowness while still packing a punch, but take that as a monday morning first-order approximation. You don't get that right off the boat, not even with the current shipping delays.

As a relevant data (counter)point, I was "forced" into opening several bottles of Faury, both VV and regular, over the past few years, from the 2010-2015 range, from an excellent cellar with decent quantity of each wine (and thus mitigated potential guilt), as no older options were available from the region at the time. In the context of superbly designed dinners, targeted for specific wines, none was quite ready.
 
originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
As a relevant data (counter)point, I was "forced" into opening several bottles of Faury, both VV and regular, over the past few years, from the 2010-2015 range, from an excellent cellar with decent quantity of each wine (and thus mitigated potential guilt), as no older options were available from the region at the time. In the context of superbly designed dinners, targeted for specific wines, none was quite ready.
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You've been studying with Jay, haven't you?
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by robert ames:


but maybe as an example, i see alain graillot as the top dog in crozes hermitage, yet would expect his regular bottling to be at its best before 12 years after the vintage. his guiraude bottling would likely be still out there breaking the waves, but that is a very small portion of his production, and to have this bottling still performing would not violate the notion that most syrah should be drunk by the time that it is 12 years old.
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This raises another question. Do people really think La Guiraude was better than the regular bottling? I never did and didn't bother to cellar it even when the premium over the regular bottling was fairly minor.
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Yes, the 2005 Guiraude was a definite step-up and drank very well on its 16th birthday.
 
originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

You've been studying with Jay, haven't you?
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Always, but which subject are you referring to?
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The quoted paragraph is even more elaborate and orotund than usual. Jay is an acknowledged master at bloviation using 12 words where 3 might suffice.
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

You've been studying with Jay, haven't you?
Click to expand...

Always, but which subject are you referring to?
Click to expand...

The quoted paragraph is even more elaborate and orotund than usual. Jay is an acknowledged master at bloviation using 12 words where 3 might suffice.
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It's a well-documented Disorder.
 
Note the Guiraude is a mere cellar selection, nothing more.

Graillot Crozes is flatland wine. I think the slopes, be it in St. J, CR, Hermitage, and Crozes (north), is where it's at. The one time I tried Graillot's St J, it made clear the constraint is the terroir, not the winemaking.

With regard to S. Rhone. I feel like I posted on this very topic pretty recently. Here is my very generalized hierarchy of aging the different appellations.

Cairanne, Sablet, other CDR V, CDR, Vacqueyras. 5-8 years, but older can be positive.

CNP and St. Gervais - 10-15 years, older can be positive.

Rasteau and most Gigondas - 15-20 years, older can be positive.

With regard to "can be positive". I have had many many sublime S Rhones older than 20 years, including CdR. I find some of the generalizations around CdR to be maddening - it is a massive massive area, with a ton of variability, and many many special VV vineyards whose wines can go the distance.
 
I am shocked that you think Gigondas and Rasteau last longer than CdP. Not counting a CdP from 1929 I had in the last decade that tasted still young,I have hadad many CdPs that were thirty and older that were in their prime. I cannot say the same for even 15-20 year old Gigondas.
 
Graillot is a producer I liked as a novice, then thought I'd moved past when I got all smart, then got back into when I got smart enough to know I hadn't been all that smart.

They're easy to like because they check all the boxes for what the beginner's guides say to look for in syrah. Rich, dark fruit, check; sizzling bacon, check; pepper, check. Perhaps almost too textbook? But what's not to like? Without a doubt they'd get more respect if they weren't Crozes. Probably they'd also get more respect if they had a terroir-based story to tell about Guiraude, if it were some magical little micro-parcel, instead of just being a reserve wine or barrel selection.

I am not sure I've ever had the opportunity to have the basic Crozes as old as a couple Guiraudes I've had that were lights-out awesome past the 15-year mark. So I can't say with scientific certainty but those bottles persuaded me that the Guiraude is indeed an altogether grander and more serious wine than the basic Crozes and that it's a long ager that deserves a place in the cellar if you like Northern Rhones.
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Probably they'd also get more respect if they had a terroir-based story to tell about Guiraude, if it were some magical little micro-parcel, instead of just being a reserve wine or barrel selection.
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'Stories' are the only thing that sell these days (sigh). I'm rather sick of hearing them.
 
To lump northern Rhône together is problematic to me. I want my cote rotie to taste completely different from my st. Joseph, Cornas should be different still and I’m still not sure what hermitage and crozes should taste like because they are marked by divergent producers making very different wines. In fact, northern st Joseph should taste nothing like southern st joseph either.

To do otherwise takes you to Delas, where I tasted 3 different appellations next to each other and while they were all good northern Rhône Syrah, there was a sameness between them. Thanks but no thanks.

Crozes is really all over the place (physically) around tain l’hermitage. We visited David Reynaud (domaine des bruyeres) and he seemed to be doing things the right way but the wines were a bit nondescript, if tasty. Certainly nothing wrong with them. Gilles-robin? Graillot?
 
originally posted by mlawton:
To lump northern Rhône together is problematic to me. I want my cote rotie to taste completely different from my st. Joseph, Cornas should be different still and I’m still not sure what hermitage and crozes should taste like because they are marked by divergent producers making very different wines. In fact, northern st Joseph should taste nothing like southern st joseph either.

To do otherwise takes you to Delas, where I tasted 3 different appellations next to each other and while they were all good northern Rhône Syrah, there was a sameness between them. Thanks but no thanks.

Crozes is really all over the place (physically) around tain l’hermitage. We visited David Reynaud (domaine des bruyeres) and he seemed to be doing things the right way but the wines were a bit nondescript, if tasty. Certainly nothing wrong with them. Gilles-robin? Graillot?
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If there was any "lumping" that wasn't remotely what I intended to convey, but if your reaction to a Crozes is "this Crozes sucks, I can't tell it apart from a Hermitage!" that's hardly a knock on the Crozes.
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
originally posted by mlawton:
To lump northern Rhône together is problematic to me. I want my cote rotie to taste completely different from my st. Joseph, Cornas should be different still and I’m still not sure what hermitage and crozes should taste like because they are marked by divergent producers making very different wines. In fact, northern st Joseph should taste nothing like southern st joseph either.

To do otherwise takes you to Delas, where I tasted 3 different appellations next to each other and while they were all good northern Rhône Syrah, there was a sameness between them. Thanks but no thanks.

Crozes is really all over the place (physically) around tain l’hermitage. We visited David Reynaud (domaine des bruyeres) and he seemed to be doing things the right way but the wines were a bit nondescript, if tasty. Certainly nothing wrong with them. Gilles-robin? Graillot?
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If there was any "lumping" that wasn't remotely what I intended to convey, but if your reaction to a Crozes is "this Crozes sucks, I can't tell it apart from a Hermitage!" that's hardly a knock on the Crozes.
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Sorry, for me the beauty of Northern Rhone is that you can stick your nose in a glass and know that what you are smelling can only come from one place in the world, whether that place is Cote Rotie or Cornas or even more specific than that. I do not get that sense from Crozes or from Hermitage.
 
originally posted by mlawton:

Sorry, for me the beauty of Northern Rhone is that you can stick your nose in a glass and know that what you are smelling can only come from one place in the world, whether that place is Cote Rotie or Cornas or even more specific than that. I do not get that sense from Crozes or from Hermitage.
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Very well said. Mike it's been a while since our paths crossed, I think it was in Ampuis at the Marche aux vins. Northern Rhones are still my passion.
 
Just a little bit about my views on Graillot based on opening the 2020 Crozes last night and the 2020 St-Joseph tonight (both red):

But first a few caveats:

1. The reported the cause of death was a stroke, so maybe he still had quite a bit of input in the 2020s, but given his age (77 at time of death in March of this year), there almost assuredly were others involved in the making of these wines -- I've seen reports of son Maxime, which if true, results in wines very different from those Maxime makes, but there may have been movements in the direction of Maxime's style.

2. The latest information I have is rather old, but indicates that the St-Jo grapes came from St-Désirat (which we're learning "can" produce very good St-Jo of its own type) and also vines planted in 2007 (I think) in St-Jean-de-Muzols, one of the classic, original St-Jo villages.

I'm not really certain that there is a terroir norm for Crozes, just that in some instances it can produce excellent Syrah in a variety of styles. Certainly, that's true of the 2020, and I think of Graillot's Crozes in general.

I have much less experience with the St-Jo than the Crozes (even though I know St-Jo terroirs much better than I do Crozes), but that said, the 2020 St-Jo shows some of the minerality that distinguishes southern St-Jo, but not enough to make for the better wine than the Crozes that one would expect.

What to make of this? I dunno, maybe Alain wasn't that focused on terroir and instead on making wines that taste good? Certainly, at the time that he was working with Dujac in the 1980s, the Dujac wines were all about style and not about terroir, although that changed at Dujac beginning in the early 1990s -- all due to the work of his vineyard manager, according to Jacques Seysses.
 
originally posted by mlawton:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
originally posted by mlawton:
To lump northern Rhône together is problematic to me. I want my cote rotie to taste completely different from my st. Joseph, Cornas should be different still and I’m still not sure what hermitage and crozes should taste like because they are marked by divergent producers making very different wines. In fact, northern st Joseph should taste nothing like southern st joseph either.

To do otherwise takes you to Delas, where I tasted 3 different appellations next to each other and while they were all good northern Rhône Syrah, there was a sameness between them. Thanks but no thanks.

Crozes is really all over the place (physically) around tain l’hermitage. We visited David Reynaud (domaine des bruyeres) and he seemed to be doing things the right way but the wines were a bit nondescript, if tasty. Certainly nothing wrong with them. Gilles-robin? Graillot?
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If there was any "lumping" that wasn't remotely what I intended to convey, but if your reaction to a Crozes is "this Crozes sucks, I can't tell it apart from a Hermitage!" that's hardly a knock on the Crozes.
Click to expand...

Sorry, for me the beauty of Northern Rhone is that you can stick your nose in a glass and know that what you are smelling can only come from one place in the world, whether that place is Cote Rotie or Cornas or even more specific than that. I do not get that sense from Crozes or from Hermitage.
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I would probably have to drink nothing but Northern Rhone for the next 700 years to have any confidence in my ability to stick my nose in a glass and know what specific part of Cote Rotie it comes from. It wouldn't diminish my enjoyment of a wine to figure it tastes a lot like Cote Rotie but could also be from elsewhere in the Rhone. It *definitely* wouldn't diminish my enjoyment of a wine to know it tastes a lot like Cote Rotie but that it's actually from elsewhere in the Rhone and a fraction of the price.
 
Two recent data points from Guillaume Gilles that violated the rule:

2017 Cornas Les Nouvelles 13.0% two months ago was ready to drink and delicious
2012 Cornas La Combe de Chaillot 14.0% was exquisite last night

So, if you're feeling violacious, Guillaume Gilles is your man.
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
originally posted by mlawton:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
originally posted by mlawton:
To lump northern Rhône together is problematic to me. I want my cote rotie to taste completely different from my st. Joseph, Cornas should be different still and I’m still not sure what hermitage and crozes should taste like because they are marked by divergent producers making very different wines. In fact, northern st Joseph should taste nothing like southern st joseph either.

To do otherwise takes you to Delas, where I tasted 3 different appellations next to each other and while they were all good northern Rhône Syrah, there was a sameness between them. Thanks but no thanks.

Crozes is really all over the place (physically) around tain l’hermitage. We visited David Reynaud (domaine des bruyeres) and he seemed to be doing things the right way but the wines were a bit nondescript, if tasty. Certainly nothing wrong with them. Gilles-robin? Graillot?
Click to expand...
If there was any "lumping" that wasn't remotely what I intended to convey, but if your reaction to a Crozes is "this Crozes sucks, I can't tell it apart from a Hermitage!" that's hardly a knock on the Crozes.
Click to expand...

Sorry, for me the beauty of Northern Rhone is that you can stick your nose in a glass and know that what you are smelling can only come from one place in the world, whether that place is Cote Rotie or Cornas or even more specific than that. I do not get that sense from Crozes or from Hermitage.
Click to expand...
I would probably have to drink nothing but Northern Rhone for the next 700 years to have any confidence in my ability to stick my nose in a glass and know what specific part of Cote Rotie it comes from. It wouldn't diminish my enjoyment of a wine to figure it tastes a lot like Cote Rotie but could also be from elsewhere in the Rhone. It *definitely* wouldn't diminish my enjoyment of a wine to know it tastes a lot like Cote Rotie but that it's actually from elsewhere in the Rhone and a fraction of the price.
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Different courses for different horses. Enjoy the ride!
 
Rules were made to be broken.

My observation has been that Syrah has a longer quiet period than Pinot, and that Cabernet Franc's development feels quite linear to me, that it doesn't seem to get dumb at any point at all, and that even the less spendy stuff is better >15.

Bourgogne I tend to like earlier and Grand Cru much later, and it is all vintage dependent. I've had Bourgogne from good producers that I felt had gone 'round the bend at 15. Been drinking '10, '11, '12 and '14 Gevrey Chambertain, Chambolle Musigny and Morey Saint Denis Village wines lately, and they have all been giving it up nicely.

The best bottles of Northern Rhone Syrah I have had have all been 15+, but the more I drink and the more I read, I'm perplexed by whether that should be attributed to the Rule or to the reality that winemaking practices have changed.

I'll just speak for myself: My mileage may vary.
 
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