help me pick a barolo

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
originally posted by BJ:
OK, here's a question: does the Rule of 15 apply to Barolo?
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More like Rule of 30 or more.

But Vajra Albe is an exception that drinks well on release.

So does Burlotto Monvigliero and this is so far below current market rates it'd be almost mandatory to order if they still have it.
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The days of Barolo not drinking on release are in the past for many bottlings. Now it's more like Burgundy, often open and giving on release, in a fruit-driven manner, then closing up and re-emerging with a different profile down the road.

Burlotto Monvigliero, in particular, can drink really well young. And it's a distinctive wine, driven by wild strawberries and black olive. As Keith says, the market price has skyrocketed and this list price is well below retail.
 
Burlotto seems cheap.
Is this something you want to drink TONIGHT?
Try the 2013 Roagna. Their base is drinking well.
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
originally posted by BJ:
OK, here's a question: does the Rule of 15 apply to Barolo?
Click to expand...
More like Rule of 30 or more.
Click to expand...

Not really - they are made more accessible these days. Anything after 10 years is fair game.
 
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
this is a no-brainer if i am mark e : only two wines at 13.5
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Funny, but true. Since I have had a fair amount of 2013 Roagna Nebbiolo, and like it a great deal, I would probably pick that. But most of the others seem too young (I do also like Cavallotto).
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I had the 2013 Roagna Pira a couple of weeks ago with the same barbecue and brisket and it showed well, but got a bit pinched after being opened for several hours (that may not be a problem). I find that Roagna wines (maybe due to the extended élévage) often show well young and that bottle was the third I've had.

Like Hanlon, I would also pick the Burlotto Monvigliero. I've always thought the beauty of that wine is that it usually drinks well young. I also need to make the obligatory point that IME the Piedmontese enjoy their Barolo much younger than is the stated custom of US wine geeks.
 
originally posted by Jim Hanlon:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
originally posted by BJ:
OK, here's a question: does the Rule of 15 apply to Barolo?
Click to expand...
More like Rule of 30 or more.

But Vajra Albe is an exception that drinks well on release.

So does Burlotto Monvigliero and this is so far below current market rates it'd be almost mandatory to order if they still have it.
Click to expand...

The days of Barolo not drinking on release are in the past for many bottlings. Now it's more like Burgundy, often open and giving on release, in a fruit-driven manner, then closing up and re-emerging with a different profile down the road.

Burlotto Monvigliero, in particular, can drink really well young. And it's a distinctive wine, driven by wild strawberries and black olive. As Keith says, the market price has skyrocketed and this list price is well below retail.
Click to expand...

Again, I'm on Team Hanlon.
 
Will those in the "they're not like they used to be" camp be willing to venture the date by which this change happened? Because I'm (perhaps juuust) old enough to have bought them on both sides of the line, it feels like we're already many years into this "new paradigm" business, and I'm not finding the newer ones any more forgiving of being drunk young than the older ones were.
 
Outside parameters are easy: certainly not in 1996, certainly so in 2016.

I think the roots of it go back to the hot 2003 vintage but probably the right answer is 2010.
 
originally posted by Jim Hanlon:
The days of Barolo not drinking on release are in the past for many bottlings. Now it's more like Burgundy, often open and giving on release, in a fruit-driven manner, then closing up and re-emerging with a different profile down the road.
Click to expand...

Jim, would you say in every recent vintage? I would concede the point in 2015 and 2018, but that may have been born out of necessity for traditionalists to make a balanced wine.
 
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by BJ:
I am ridiculously clueless about Italian wine (that actually might start to change). Any other areas? Here is a link to the posted list (older than current): https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...45/Mucca+Osteria+Wine+List+2022+-+5_14_22.pdf

Many thanks for the thoughts. We go tonight, and one of their cellars is offsite, so any thoughts soon welcome.
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Too many overpriced wines - and so young - but I would order the 2016 Ar.Pe.Pe Rosso di Valtellina if I wanted nebbiolo. The list is not very imaginative, and really lacks diversity, leaving out many great producers who are not "names." Honestly seeing their wine list, I would doubt they use great ingredients in the kitchen, but who knows?
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I'm going to push back on this a little bit. The price is the price and it's based on the cost and these aren't extreme for the costs of the wines. It's also almost impossible to have wines on a list with any age if you have to buy current release. Not financially viable for a restaurant.

What I would change if this was my list is that I might just shrink it, but then folks would complain about that. I tend to judge lists not by whether they are what I would ideally do, but whether there are things I can happily drink at the prices offered. There is plenty to choose from on this list.
 
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by BJ:
I am ridiculously clueless about Italian wine (that actually might start to change). Any other areas? Here is a link to the posted list (older than current): https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...45/Mucca+Osteria+Wine+List+2022+-+5_14_22.pdf

Many thanks for the thoughts. We go tonight, and one of their cellars is offsite, so any thoughts soon welcome.
Click to expand...

Too many overpriced wines - and so young - but I would order the 2016 Ar.Pe.Pe Rosso di Valtellina if I wanted nebbiolo. The list is not very imaginative, and really lacks diversity, leaving out many great producers who are not "names." Honestly seeing their wine list, I would doubt they use great ingredients in the kitchen, but who knows?
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The price is the price and it's based on the cost and these aren't extreme for the costs of the wines.
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I only looked up two prices: 2017 Aldo Conterno Romirasco and Cicala which are $150 and $130 respectively at retail where I am. So I can only surmise that either you think that 5x wholesale for a current release is not extreme OR the US importers of the wines have a much larger markup than European importers (plus we have 4/5 taxes on a bottle of wine in Norway, including 25% VAT).
 
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by BJ:
I am ridiculously clueless about Italian wine (that actually might start to change). Any other areas? Here is a link to the posted list (older than current): https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...45/Mucca+Osteria+Wine+List+2022+-+5_14_22.pdf

Many thanks for the thoughts. We go tonight, and one of their cellars is offsite, so any thoughts soon welcome.
Click to expand...

Too many overpriced wines - and so young - but I would order the 2016 Ar.Pe.Pe Rosso di Valtellina if I wanted nebbiolo. The list is not very imaginative, and really lacks diversity, leaving out many great producers who are not "names." Honestly seeing their wine list, I would doubt they use great ingredients in the kitchen, but who knows?
Click to expand...

The price is the price and it's based on the cost and these aren't extreme for the costs of the wines.
Click to expand...
I only looked up two prices: 2017 Aldo Conterno Romirasco and Cicala which are $150 and $130 respectively at retail where I am. So I can only surmise that either you think that 5x wholesale for a current release is not extreme OR the US importers of the wines have a much larger markup than European importers (plus we have 4/5 taxes on a bottle of wine in Norway, including 25% VAT).
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Based on my wholesale cost for the Vajra (which is the easiest one for me to access at the moment) it's a ~2.25x wholesale mark-up. Eyeballing the Vietti and Conterno, it looks about 2x as well. Burlotto is much less, but I think my local takes some extra squeeze on that.

So I think the prices are pretty fair, generally. It's the wholesale pricing that has gone up. The C&G Bramaterra is the screaming value on the list.
 
Any thoughts on the Az Agr E Pira e Figli Nebbiolo Via Nuova Barolo '08? I found it on a wine list for $75.

Hopefully, it will be a comfortable fit in one of y'all's rules.

. . . . . . Pete
 
originally posted by Brian C:

I remember reading that Beppe Rinaldi preferred them at about 8-10 yrs.
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It is unlikely that you read this, as the man said multiple times that his goal was to make wines that would never be ready to drink. May He Rest in Peace.

Someone who often does says something along these lines is Maria Teresa Mascarello of Bartolo Mascarello. She isn't alone in saying it, it is a pretty common sentiment to hear expressed among producers of both Barolo and Barbaresco. I bring up Mascarello specifically here, though, because when this same topic came up long ago on this board, and Levenberg was expressing the same view that he is expressing here in this thread, it was a Bartolo Mascarello wine that he opened to experiment, only to find to his horror that it wasn't yet to his liking. Use of the SEARCH function will probably bring it all up. At any rate, Levenberg is both wrong and out of touch on this topic, and has been for a long time now. The grapes are riper, the grape material is more extractable and thus less in need of extraction, some producers are doing what might be referred to as more infusion, some producers are working with whole berries, destemmers are much, much better than they used to be and this is a particular issue when Nebbiolo is involved, clonal vine material is prevalent, guyot training is totally dominant, less sulphur is added, the reduction is less than what once might have been, volatility is fairly rare, producers themselves are not trying to make wines to last 100 years or that won't be ready for decades, there has been more investment in bottling machines that are owned by the wineries themselves as opposed to contracting with mobile bottling lines, the criticial consensus doesn't associate strong tannins with high scores, and there are probably several more reasons for the shift besides. A suspicion that I harbor is that organically farmed grapes give wines that are more harmonious on the palate at an earlier age. I would say the same about co-ferments.

It is probably also worth noting that the beef and braise heavy cuisine of the Piemonte goes nicely with a youngish Barolo. And also that people who make wine in many parts of the world, not just the Piemonte, tend to have palate preferences for younger red wines.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Someone who often does says something along these lines is Maria Teresa Mascarello of Bartolo Mascarello. She isn't alone in saying it, it is a pretty common sentiment to hear expressed among producers of both Barolo and Barbaresco. I bring up Mascarello specifically here, though, because when this same topic came up long ago on this board, and Levenberg was expressing the same view that he is expressing here in this thread, it was a Bartolo Mascarello wine that he opened to experiment, only to find to his horror that it wasn't yet to his liking. Use of the SEARCH function will probably bring it all up.
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Your memory is faulty. The thread you're talking about is here (http://winedisorder.com/comment/56/9296/) and the one who brought up Bartolo Mascarello was you, not me. No, I didn't open one to "experiment" or discover anything to my "horror." You cited a recent vintage as "ready for enjoyment," my experience was otherwise. So we disagreed about that and apparently still disagree as a general matter. Then and now, I mentioned Burlotto as one I do enjoy young. That's apparently one we can agree on. Small victories.
 
The year is 2056. The fires have been raging continuously for 3 years. Fire brigade service is now compulsory for all adults. The aliens have made contact, and an investment in bitcoin. Disney is about to release their 92nd Star Wars prequel. And for one man, the Barolo is still too young.
 
You and I can have a big 80th birthday bash in 2057 where we open all our slow-aging Barolos. If the aliens really do get into bitcoin, I'll bring the Monfortino.
 
I shall enjoy a Barolo on release because it is now more mellow by way of being less extracted, and is more of a fruit bomb than ever before. I shall do so in fear of repercussions for deviating from the new party line. I shall drink the young Barolo for its newly acquired appeal, even though it will display none of its characteristic complexity that compels me to spend hard-earned currency in the first place. I shall confront the error of my ways in treating Nabokov's Lolita as merely a fictional text, and shall interpret it as a party-approved wine drinker's guide to Piedmont.
 
originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
I shall enjoy a Barolo on release because it is now more mellow by way of being less extracted, and is more of a fruit bomb than ever before. I shall do so in fear of repercussions for deviating from the new party line. I shall drink the young Barolo for its newly acquired appeal, even though it will display none of its characteristic complexity that compels me to spend hard-earned currency in the first place. I shall confront the error of my ways in treating Nabokov's Lolita as merely a fictional text, and shall interpret it as a party-approved wine drinker's guide to Piedmont.
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Would I rather drink Burlotto Monvigliero with 15-20 years on it? Yes, and that's what I do with the couple bottles I get. Would I be glad to drink young Burlotto Monvigliero off a list for $155? Also yes.

I am, however, firmly against drinking Bartolo Mascarello young. Not because I have a history of what the experience is like. Just because.
 
I'm just going to say, I'm damn proud of this here thread I started. It's a good'un! An old timey WD thread, full of pissed off, semi-unhinged, illogical, insightful, and even olive branchey stuff! Yum!

For those who care, we got pretty stoked about the Ar Pe Pe recommendation, but jumped on that '02 Rocce Rossa Riserva. The somm broke the cork using a shortish waiter's corkscrew (why do they insist on those on older bottles?), but potentially a sign of a dried out cork. The broken bottom ended up in the bottle, so the somm decanted it - I was a bit asleep at the switch on either asking for no decant or declining the bottle. It was quite good but over the hill by meal's end - perhaps a sign of a less than good bottle - but then again - that was a short corkscrew, and 2002 is now 20 years ago, hard to believe.
 
originally posted by BJ:
I'm just going to say, I'm damn proud of this here thread I started. It's a good'un! An old timey WD thread, full of pissed off, semi-unhinged, illogical, insightful, and even olive branchey stuff! Yum!

For those who care, we got pretty stoked about the Ar Pe Pe recommendation, but jumped on that '02 Rocce Rossa Riserva. The somm broke the cork using a shortish waiter's corkscrew (why do they insist on those on older bottles?), but potentially a sign of a dried out cork. The broken bottom ended up in the bottle, so the somm decanted it - I was a bit asleep at the switch on either asking for no decant or declining the bottle. It was quite good but over the hill by meal's end - perhaps a sign of a less than good bottle - but then again - that was a short corkscrew, and 2002 is now 20 years ago, hard to believe.
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as someone that's opened bottles for a living for 20+ years, i cringe to see the often cluelessness of those that also do it for a living, as well as the shitty corkscrews too often being used. while a 20 year old cork is not yet a candidate for a durand, it needs a full length corkscrew or an ah-so.
 
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