TN: The Virtual Tasting #29 (January 26, 2023)

Jeff Grossman

Jeff Grossman
attendees: Eden + Scott, Jay, Jayson, Jeff, Lisa, Seth, Victor

Jay and Eden pouring. Ten wines: two bad, two white, two sweet, four red. And Bacchus was messing with us.

It's the depth of winter so we're all as close to hibernation as homo sapiens ever are. Jay is pouring whatever he feels like but, get this, Eden is pouring samples from the wines set aside for Pierce's bar mitzvah.

No.

No, no, no, no, no.

Pierce is a toddler. He plays with felt ravioli and is about the same size as the dog. He cannot possibly be 13 years old. That would make me... oh, it's too awful to consider.

We'll just indulge Eden and Scott in their 'little man all grown up' fantasy.

Shh, don't say anything.

Well, unless it's a tasting note:

#Jay1: Wirsching 2021 Iphofer Silvaner Trocken - from bocksbeutel; several of us immediately name it sauvignon blanc (no), "fresh and floral" -Eden, "I like it" -Victor, "something familiar about it" -Jayson, this is bone dry, herbal/vegetal and mineral, refreshing as a cool breeze, we eventually chase it down to Germany and silvaner; at the start of this round we are saying 'Frahn-ken' but by the end we are saying 'Frank-en' which is an old Mel Brooks joke (I think it's part of the Great Jeebus Vowel Shift that happens as we get sozzled...)
Day 3: still greenwood, fresh, salty, more body than I'd expect, herby maybe all the way to grassy, very good

#Jay2: Pepiere 2002 Muscadet "Clos des Briords", Cuvee VV - shot
Day 3: a shame as there is a core of zingy, juicy, yellow fruit down there but shrouded in stale funk

#Eden1: Chateau Simone 2010 Palette Blanc - saline and savory and a little funky, definitely needs food, Jayson is guessing all over the SW and SE of France but never does choose Palette, this was really hard to pick out
Day 3: very slight oxy (age-appropriate), broad palate but kinda vague, more resin leather spice than anything I could put my finger on

#Eden2: Marechal 2010 Savigny-les-Beaunes 1er "Les Lavieres" - corked
Day 3: not the usual corkiness, more rotten meat than old socks, cannot even bear to taste it

#Jay3: Xavier Gerard 2017 Cote-Rotie - right away: "Syrah" -Victor, very dry and drying tannins, "Not Rhone" -Jeff (wrong), "Serious" -Jayson, kinda blocky and boring, "I didn't like an older year of this but thought I'd try again" -Jay
Day 3: licorice and blackberries, maybe a bit of brown earth but still a syrah fruit bomb

#Jay4: Chateau Musar 1982 Rouge - complex and intense and totally has us fooled: we guess Bordeaux, Piedmont, Burgundy, Rioja when of course it's Musar //face-palm//, the '82 vintage is known for wide bottle variation but this is a great one
Day 3: in the nose... new sneakers!, maybe some black cherry and crispbread; but the palate is so much better: the weight of Burgundy with a SW France flavor profile (redfruity but light and dry)

#Jay5: Gouges 1996 Nuits-St-Georges "Les Vaucrains" - "Another Musar!" -Jayson (no), but it does have a lot of nasal defects so that's a reasonable guess, "salty on the nose" -Jayson, I think the wine is smoky and full of lavender sachet; we eventually guess Gouges Vaucrains in the 90s but no further
Day 3: Dr. Vins-Seuss adds: My nose is old, My acids are angular, My palate is bold, and the Whole tastes of lavender.

#Eden3: Dom. Lionnet 2010 Cornas "Terre Brulee" - incredibly beautiful and fragrant nose while unapproachably tannic on the palate, "Peppery" -Victor, "Syrah" -Jay, by now we know the vintage
Day 3: yet more juicy syrah, a touch of funk appears and gives it some depth, I still wouldn't know what region this is from; and this is so youthful: the color still purply, the tannins still plentiful (if fine), try again in 5 years?

#Eden4: Foreau (Dom. du Clos Naudin) 2010 Vouvray Moelleux - "Chenin" -Jayson, Eden says this was fresher in the morning, citrus over resin, maybe a whiff of sweet banana, it started with a 'bakery' or 'butterscotch' vibe but that has eased off
Day 3: a certain gras, almost buttery/confectionary, in the nose; beautiful wine, sweet without cloying too hard, as much fresh citrus as marmalade, there is a bit of funk/harsh late in the finish so maybe more time is needed

#Jay6: Muller-Catoir 1996 Haardter Mandelring Scheurebe Eiswein - from 375ml, navel oranges served over bbq sauce, "So... Muller-Catoir!" -Seth, this is terrific: spicy on the palate, brown sugar, clove, "Artichoke" -Pierce (which is not a bad reminding), the grapefruity palate has become more passionfruit but excellent acidity holds it all together
Day 3: color of maple syrup, flavor of the best golden raisins you ever had, a whiff of spearmint and demi-glace, wow

During the evening we catch up a bit on our lives and we tell jokes.

Seth tells us an Engineer joke: A mathematician, a physicist, and an engineer are asked to calculate the volume of a small red sphere. The mathematician pulls out a set of calipers, takes a few measurements, pops them into an equation and gives an answer. The physicist submerges the ball in a graduated cylinder full of water and measures the displaced volume. The engineer picks up the red ball, turns it over in his hands, and puts it back down. Then he picks it up again and turns it over in his hands and puts it back down. Then he pulls a book off the shelf called "Volumes of Small Red Spheres".

Later, somehow, possibly but not entirely related to the bar mitzvah discussion, I tell a mohel joke. I apologize if that was inappropriate but, in my defense, I'd been drinking. Anyway, it's the right crowd for it as everybody on this call is Jewish (a non-surprise for NYC).

Once again, many thanks to Eden and Jay for providing lovely wines and thanks to everyone for a fun evening.

2023-01-26_jeebus.jpg
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
Why don’t I have more Riesling?
Same reason that I don't... there's lots of other good things to drink, too!
Agreed.
Curiously, Riesling, and specifically German Riesling, was how I got into wine.
Imperial Chateau opened several locations on the west coast of Florida in late ‘60’s and the owners loved fine German Riesling. Half the store was devoted to those wines and their knowledge was deep. I remember buying fine Rhine and Mosel wines for less than $10 - those same wines now are in the $100’s.
My brother and I set-up a little cellar in a closet and we aged some of them there. Several years ago we drank a magnum of Erbacher from the ‘70’s that he kept since purchase; fresh, youthful and complex.
My wife is not a fan of the grape, so that’s probably why I don’t buy them but, when I have them elsewhere, it takes me back and there are very few I don’t care for.
Nathan, well prior to his nuptials, opened a Donnhoff, Auslese that I got to taste and to this day I think about that wine - god wine.
Maybe I’ll experiment a little . . .
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
Why don’t I have more Riesling?
Same reason that I don't... there's lots of other good things to drink, too!
Agreed.
Curiously, Riesling, and specifically German Riesling, was how I got into wine.
Imperial Chateau opened several locations on the west coast of Florida in late ‘60’s and the owners loved fine German Riesling. Half the store was devoted to those wines and their knowledge was deep. I remember buying fine Rhine and Mosel wines for less than $10 - those same wines now are in the $100’s.
My brother and I set-up a little cellar in a closet and we aged some of them there. Several years ago we drank a magnum of Erbacher from the ‘70’s that he kept since purchase; fresh, youthful and complex.
My wife is not a fan of the grape, so that’s probably why I don’t buy them but, when I have them elsewhere, it takes me back and there are very few I don’t care for.
Nathan, well prior to his nuptials, opened a Donnhoff, Auslese that I got to taste and to this day I think about that wine - god wine.
Maybe I’ll experiment a little . . .

Jim, we are in similar straits regarding our wives’ dislike for Riesling. If our paths should cross again, I promise to bring some aged Prum and Lauer Rieslings along, for scientific study only, of course. Diane and Jean can content themselves with something else.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
Why don’t I have more Riesling?
Same reason that I don't... there's lots of other good things to drink, too!
Agreed.
Curiously, Riesling, and specifically German Riesling, was how I got into wine.
Imperial Chateau opened several locations on the west coast of Florida in late ‘60’s and the owners loved fine German Riesling. Half the store was devoted to those wines and their knowledge was deep. I remember buying fine Rhine and Mosel wines for less than $10 - those same wines now are in the $100’s.
My brother and I set-up a little cellar in a closet and we aged some of them there. Several years ago we drank a magnum of Erbacher from the ‘70’s that he kept since purchase; fresh, youthful and complex.
My wife is not a fan of the grape, so that’s probably why I don’t buy them but, when I have them elsewhere, it takes me back and there are very few I don’t care for.
Nathan, well prior to his nuptials, opened a Donnhoff, Auslese that I got to taste and to this day I think about that wine - god wine.
Maybe I’ll experiment a little . . .

Jim, we are in similar straits regarding our wives’ dislike for Riesling. If our paths should cross again, I promise to bring some aged Prum and Lauer Rieslings along, for scientific study only, of course. Diane and Jean can content themselves with something else.

Mark Lipton

You know, Riesling isn't Steph's favorite either. Loves Chenin and other whites we drink.

Also, not a big fan of Champagne without food due to the acid. Maybe Riesling is a similar thing. [shrug]
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
My wife is not a fan of the grape, so that’s probably why I don’t buy them

I bet she really digs Chablis. No idea how I came up with that.

I keep on running into this, with increasing frequency.

It is difficult to imagine that a bone dry Riesling from the "right place" (whatever soil type happens to suit a particular Chardonnay/Sauvignon Blanc-oriented palate) would be met with objections in a neutral world. Is it perhaps by association with predominantly off-dry Riesling that its type of fruitiness is subconsciously dismissed as sweetness?

I'd be curious to hear what goes on on the ground in Germany. I travel to Germany (most recently in November), but I don't get out to observe and interrogate the general wine-drinking public much. Perhaps Georg, Rahsaan, and others can elucidate. A decade+ ago, I was told that no one was ordering Sancerre and Chablis anymore. It was all domestic Trocken, in bars and restaurants. As evidence, major importers confessed to maintaining a single producer in each category, just to be able to say that they have one. Fashion & consumer patriotism played a part, but one has to believe the German counterparts of Diane and Jean wouldn't put up with such nonsense should their tastes have dictated otherwise. Has this trend reversed, to an extent? Have dry Rieslings gained a permanent place of gastronomic significance? Have other varieties (weissburgunder, grauburgunder, silvaner, or for that matter domestic chardonnay) made inroads displacing Riesling to an extent while helping maintain domestic market share?
 
Pavel,
Yes, she does like Chablis.
But then . . . you knew that.

Any sweetness in wine usually sends her running so she may be predisposed regarding Riesling. And for that reason, we don’t even try the drier versions.
Fortunately, I have many years of drinking great Riesling behind me and, these days, the occasional kindness of friends.
There is a lot of good wine out there and . . . we adjust.
Best, Jim
 
Pavel raises lots of good questions. I would be curious to hear a scientific explanation of what could turn people away from Riesling. In my non-scientific experience, sometimes it is the association with sweetness, other times it is an aversion to the high-acid frame, and other times it is a dislike for the flavor (scientists may know the exact components, but strikes me as something herbal at the core). Of course those latter two would not explain people who love Sancerre but detest Riesling, if they exist.

On the German front, I don't have comprehensive consumer research but I do think Riesling has undergone a slight 'renaissance' in Germany in recent years, perhaps bolstered by the warm vintages helping the dry wines along, rising quality, the word finally getting out, who knows. But, my impression is that weissburgunder and grauburgunder are still the leading domestic white wines for the non-geeks. They are so much 'easier' to open and drink at a fair price, without much contemplation.
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
Why don’t I have more Riesling?

While this is, of course, always an appropriate question, we didn’t have any Riesling at this tasting. Or was that intended as a subtle reproach?
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
Pavel raises lots of good questions. I would be curious to hear a scientific explanation of what could turn people away from Riesling. In my non-scientific experience, sometimes it is the association with sweetness, other times it is an aversion to the high-acid frame, and other times it is a dislike for the flavor (scientists may know the exact components, but strikes me as something herbal at the core). Of course those latter two would not explain people who love Sancerre but detest Riesling, if they exist.

On the German front, I don't have comprehensive consumer research but I do think Riesling has undergone a slight 'renaissance' in Germany in recent years, perhaps bolstered by the warm vintages helping the dry wines along, rising quality, the word finally getting out, who knows. But, my impression is that weissburgunder and grauburgunder are still the leading domestic white wines for the non-geeks. They are so much 'easier' to open and drink at a fair price, without much contemplation.

I can speak only for the one in my house, but she really doesn’t like the flavor profile, either the aromatics or the petrol notes that a lot of Trocken present. She does like Weissburgunder, Silvaner and Scheurebe, not we’re not totally adrift in Germany.

Mark Lipton
 
i understand that a person's take on cilantro, another love/hate flavour, is now attributed to a particular gene. maybe there is a riesling gene.
 
People who have the cilantro gene, so to speak, experience the taste of the herb as soapy. If there is a riesling gene, when asked what they tasted, one would think they would all answer with some version of the same disagreeable taste. Otherwise, it will just be a different evaluation of the same taste. So the possibility has an easy enough first line anecdotal experiment. Florida Jim, Mark and Nathan should all ask their spouses what they taste when they taste riesling.
 
originally posted by Jay Miller:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
Why don’t I have more Riesling?

While this is, of course, always an appropriate question, we didn’t have any Riesling at this tasting. Or was that intended as a subtle reproach?
The Muller sent my mind reeling into the past.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
People who have the cilantro gene, so to speak, experience the taste of the herb as soapy. If there is a riesling gene, when asked what they tasted, one would think they would all answer with some version of the same disagreeable taste. Otherwise, it will just be a different evaluation of the same taste. So the possibility has an easy enough first line anecdotal experiment. Florida Jim, Mark and Nathan should all ask their spouses what they taste when they taste riesling.

That touches on a long-standing philosophical conundrum, no? Does the smell that I call "petrol" match the one that my spouse attaches to that name? Does the color I call green match the color that you think of as green? How can we know?

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
People who have the cilantro gene, so to speak, experience the taste of the herb as soapy. If there is a riesling gene, when asked what they tasted, one would think they would all answer with some version of the same disagreeable taste. Otherwise, it will just be a different evaluation of the same taste. So the possibility has an easy enough first line anecdotal experiment. Florida Jim, Mark and Nathan should all ask their spouses what they taste when they taste riesling.

That touches on a long-standing philosophical conundrum, no? Does the smell that I call "petrol" match the one that my spouse attaches to that name? Does the color I call green match the color that you think of as green? How can we know?

Mark Lipton

We can't know whether the world wasn't created five minutes ago with all the signs of it's having the long history we think of it and ourselves as having. But those metaphysical problems don't go anywhere. On the other hand, if genes are genes and cilantro is cilantro, we could figure out if riesling is like cilantro in evoking a particular sensation among a small group of people who have a particular gene.
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Later, somehow, possibly but not entirely related to the bar mitzvah discussion, I tell a mohel joke. I apologize if that was inappropriate but, in my defense, I'd been drinking. Anyway, it's the right crowd for it as everybody on this call is Jewish (a non-surprise for NYC).

is your group associated with Jews and Booze that Gordon's is collaborating with in today's Whisky offer?
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Florida Jim, Mark and Nathan should all ask their spouses what they taste when they taste riesling.

Followed by "what are you thinking?"

Jonathan must not be married.
 
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