For His Corpulence: 2015 Ziereisen Schulen

MLipton

Mark Lipton
Last year, fb and I discussed the question of how Ziereisen’s winemaking changed as the bottling got more “important.” Tonight, I have my impression. Alas, I could not locate the bottles of the ‘13 Schulen that had occasioned our dialogue, so the ‘15 it was. It had plenty of Pinot character, but — in contrast to my earlier Ziereisen — had no sense of place that I could detect. Had I been blinded with this wine, I might have guessed a Côte de Beaune. This might be partly a function of a ripe year, but it might also be a function of winemaking. Even after an hour or more since opening, it bore little to no resemblance to any other Spätburgunder of my acquaintance.

Further details available on request,
Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
For His Corpulence: 2015 Ziereisen SchulenLast year, fb and I discussed the question of how Ziereisen’s winemaking changed as the bottling got more “important.”

yup. though another possibility is that we just have a very different idea of place -- maybe ziereisen honestly just digs bland shit, and evaluates his sites and prices differently accordingly.

what is soulless/anonymous to one fat man might be polished/classy to another, etc.

fb.
 
originally posted by MLipton:
Even after an hour or more since opening, it bore little to no resemblance to any other Spätburgunder of my acquaintance.

You say this like that's a bad thing. I see it as an opportunity to expand horizons and deal with different planes of existence, seen through the lens of a wine bottle. I mean, maybe if you bought the Ziereisen specifically to drink a Spätburgunder from Schulen, it wouldn't be optimal, but if you were in the mood for a really good pinot, it'd still be okay, no? What if you'd shelled out $50 for a Mofi pressing of say, a Brad Mehldau record, only this time he'd headed off onto a Thelonious Monk tangent and his normal smoothly dissonant improvs were way more edgy and sharp-elbowed than usual, not uninteresting but also not necessarily Mehldauian (again, potentially not such a bad thing if maybe you prefer Keith Jarrett or Fats Waller to begin with). And suppose this 180 gram+, half-speed mastered maybe/kinda with a digital transfer somewhere in the reproductive chain wasn't chock full of Beatles covers like he often does, but maybe this time he's channeling Monk while improvising his way through say, Abba's greatest hits? It's Mehldau alright, it's kind of modal (but not dirge-like modal,) and it's Monkish and Mehldauian and Abba-like all at the same time (Downbeat would give it 3.5 stars and say that it's a "transition album" while Stereophile would give the music four stars and the recording only three stars because Bootsy Collins played bass on the record and his signal was run through four distortion pedals and two envelope filters before hitting the board where they compressed the hell out of it). But the bottom line is that it's still jazz, and it's pretty good jazz, but straddles categories like they was channeling Frank Zappa or Danny Gatton. What the heck, maybe it's Frank and Danny playing Abba tunes the way Thelonious Monk woulda played from the hereafter along with Brad and Bootsy. Hell, I'd probably give that concept six stars (out of five) and crank that sucker right up, even if it wasn't what I'd expected when I laid my money down for the record.

I see this as kind of like that Ziereisen's rendition of the Schulen in 2015 may not be a stellar example of the vineyard, but it's dang good pinot noir. Or maybe the weather just combined with Ziereisen's skills to make dang good Côte de Beaune, but for less money? And maybe it's not what one would expect, but where does it fall on the Spätburgunder scale? Here I am, listening to Ahmad Jamal's recording of songs from "Renaissance" (that's Beyoncé's "Renaissance", not "the" Renaissance, which happened way long before he signed to Argo) and drinking a 2016 Levantine Hill Syrah that tastes like a St. Joseph with a view from the hillside and wondering whether this is what all Yarra Valley syrahs should taste like or is it just this one and does it matter anyway?(and I'm also wondering what inspired Ahmad Jamal to make this record on a Fender Rhodes played through quadrophonic Leslies?) Nothing is what it's supposed to be, but it's still good and I'm having a blast trying to backwards-engineer everything. And that's what I like about wine. (well, it's at least one of the things I like about it. You should see my thoughts when I'm microdosing on Chartreuse!)

Or, as Muddy Waters put it:

I ain't foolin', you need Schulen
Baby, you know you need coolin'
Woman, way down inside
Woman you need love, you've got to have some love
Ooh, you gotta have some love

-Eden (And I do feel your pain about not being able to locate that 2013 Ziereisen. I haven't inventoried my cellar since maybe 1983 so I long ago gave up on finding a specific wine. The upside is that I'm always surprised to find things I thought I drank a long time ago, presuming I even remembered I'd bought the wine in the first place)(this is probably what it'll be like when I get dementia, right?)
 
Eden, you raise several interesting points. Believe me, a voice in the back of my head was muttering about all those producers who tell us they’re making “Burgundian” Pinot, and here I am criticizing one for doing just that. However, I will push back a bit: would anyone suggest that “Love Beach” is ELP’s best album? Or that Dylan’s Christian albums were his apotheosis? I would have no objection if Ziereisen S’s express purpose was to make Santa Lucia Highlands lookalikes in Baden, I would have no issue (except that I’d avoid them like the plague). In this case, though, what occasioned our discussion was that Ziereisen’s Pinots get less interesting as the bottling gets more prestigious. I have enough experience now to have some idea what a Pinot Noir from the Kaiserstuhl tastes like (though I have need help keeping Buntsandstein and Muschelkalk straight). The wine in question was far more anonymous in character than its less prestigious counterpart. When I finished it tonight (no fatsink for me) it could have been a Navarro “Methode l’Ancienne.”

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
I wonder how this thread would have been if written by ChatGPT.
Have at it, O. Let us know the result.

Mark Lipton
(Unable to pass CAPTCHA)
 
originally posted by Eden Mylunsch:
originally posted by MLipton:
Even after an hour or more since opening, it bore little to no resemblance to any other Spätburgunder of my acquaintance.

You say this like that's a bad thing. I see it as an opportunity to expand horizons and deal with different planes of existence, seen through the lens of a wine bottle. I mean, maybe if you bought the Ziereisen specifically to drink a Spätburgunder from Schulen, it wouldn't be optimal, but if you were in the mood for a really good pinot, it'd still be okay, no? What if you'd shelled out $50 for a Mofi pressing of say, a Brad Mehldau record, only this time he'd headed off onto a Thelonious Monk tangent and his normal smoothly dissonant improvs were way more edgy and sharp-elbowed than usual, not uninteresting but also not necessarily Mehldauian (again, potentially not such a bad thing if maybe you prefer Keith Jarrett or Fats Waller to begin with). And suppose this 180 gram+, half-speed mastered maybe/kinda with a digital transfer somewhere in the reproductive chain wasn't chock full of Beatles covers like he often does, but maybe this time he's channeling Monk while improvising his way through say, Abba's greatest hits? It's Mehldau alright, it's kind of modal (but not dirge-like modal,) and it's Monkish and Mehldauian and Abba-like all at the same time (Downbeat would give it 3.5 stars and say that it's a "transition album" while Stereophile would give the music four stars and the recording only three stars because Bootsy Collins played bass on the record and his signal was run through four distortion pedals and two envelope filters before hitting the board where they compressed the hell out of it). But the bottom line is that it's still jazz, and it's pretty good jazz, but straddles categories like they was channeling Frank Zappa or Danny Gatton. What the heck, maybe it's Frank and Danny playing Abba tunes the way Thelonious Monk woulda played from the hereafter along with Brad and Bootsy. Hell, I'd probably give that concept six stars (out of five) and crank that sucker right up, even if it wasn't what I'd expected when I laid my money down for the record.

I see this as kind of like that Ziereisen's rendition of the Schulen in 2015 may not be a stellar example of the vineyard, but it's dang good pinot noir. Or maybe the weather just combined with Ziereisen's skills to make dang good Côte de Beaune, but for less money? And maybe it's not what one would expect, but where does it fall on the Spätburgunder scale? Here I am, listening to Ahmad Jamal's recording of songs from "Renaissance" (that's Beyoncé's "Renaissance", not "the" Renaissance, which happened way long before he signed to Argo) and drinking a 2016 Levantine Hill Syrah that tastes like a St. Joseph with a view from the hillside and wondering whether this is what all Yarra Valley syrahs should taste like or is it just this one and does it matter anyway?(and I'm also wondering what inspired Ahmad Jamal to make this record on a Fender Rhodes played through quadrophonic Leslies?) Nothing is what it's supposed to be, but it's still good and I'm having a blast trying to backwards-engineer everything. And that's what I like about wine. (well, it's at least one of the things I like about it. You should see my thoughts when I'm microdosing on Chartreuse!)

Or, as Muddy Waters put it:

I ain't foolin', you need Schulen
Baby, you know you need coolin'
Woman, way down inside
Woman you need love, you've got to have some love
Ooh, you gotta have some love

-Eden (And I do feel your pain about not being able to locate that 2013 Ziereisen. I haven't inventoried my cellar since maybe 1983 so I long ago gave up on finding a specific wine. The upside is that I'm always surprised to find things I thought I drank a long time ago, presuming I even remembered I'd bought the wine in the first place)(this is probably what it'll be like when I get dementia, right?)
Hey Eden,
I’m still “Not Drunk, Just Drinkin”
Thanks . . .
 
originally posted by MLipton:
In this case, though, what occasioned our discussion was that Ziereisen’s Pinots get less interesting as the bottling gets more prestigious. I have enough experience now to have some idea what a Pinot Noir from the Kaiserstuhl tastes like (though I have need help keeping Buntsandstein and Muschelkalk straight). The wine in question was far more anonymous in character than its less prestigious counterpart. When I finished it tonight (no fatsink for me) it could have been a Navarro “Methode l’Ancienne.”

Mark Lipton

I have not yet touched many of the more expensive bottles from them (certainly enjoyed the basic Pinots and the whites), but could it be that they are indeed from different soils than the simpler wines (and certainly those from the Kaiserstuhl)?

My geology is not the best and the nomenclature is often used rather confusingly, but around Efringen is definitely a distinct geological area with an exposed layer of what they call Jurakalk (this area is rather distinct from most others, as is the Kaiserstuhl with its volcanic origin) . They are in direct extension of the Swiss and French Jura that goes all the way west into burgundy (and to the east into the Swabian Jura where Helmut Dolde is). This is the soil that Ziereisen lists for all the more "serious" wines. In contrast, the basic Pinots are said to be from Muschelkalk with Loess, which would make sense for the flatter areas and which is much more similar to the vineyards to the north of them.
So maybe it is not only the winemaking that leads to these different results.

Georg L
 
links didn't work. Vineyard map of Zierisen's vineyards, and googlemap of 50 minute drive from Zieriesen to Kaiserstuhl were attempted.

and....what Georg said.
 
originally posted by MLipton:
EHowever, I will push back a bit: would anyone suggest that “Love Beach” is ELP’s best album?
Mark Lipton

Anyone who knows anything about ELP knows that "Tarkus" was the acme of the band's ouevre, although there's room for debate over whether "Pictures at an Exhibition" would have been taken more seriously if the band had actually composed the music themselves; as is, I see it as a more-than-im-Modest pre-Instagram paean to russian through an art museum to get to the gift shop and buy a t-shirt to prove to your friends back home that you went to the big city and got you some culture. Meanwhile, "Tarkus" was about an armadillo with tank treads. You make the call as to which concept was more profound. I feel okay about my choice.

Or that Dylan’s Christian albums were his apotheosis?

Nah, they were okay but are they albums I want stuck on "play" in my busted cassette deck in my Volvo for the rest of my life? No way dude, but it could be argued that without "Slow Train Coming" there'd have been no "Time Out of Mind." And is there a finer seven minutes in the history of Saturday Night Live than his performance of ""Gotta Serve Somebody back in 1979? That moment at 0:59 where he turns to Tim Drummond (that band was known as the "Zimmy & Timmy" tour) and the bouncing bassist smiles back and locks with drummer Jim Keltner and guitarist Fred Tackett and grinds into a groove that shakes the rafters of the Studio 8H cathedral. It's a moment of musical transplendence as yet unparalleled on the TV (I have it on good authority that the band's contractual rider included "Two (2) bottles of German Pinot Noir, ideally tasting as close to Burgundy as possible.")

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
When ChatGPT can emulate Eden, it’s all over.

Maybe so, but my life would sure be a hell of a lot easier.

-Eden (debating whether I need to drop $100+ on the latest Dylan bootleg series release with 5 discs covering the outtakes from "Time Out of Mind." Leave us wanting more, Bob!)
 
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