Transient maderization?

M

MLipton

Mark Lipton
Herein I relate a bizarre experience. The other night I opened my last bottle of the 2005 Edmunds St John Wylie-Fenaughty Syrah. The cork came out totally pristine, but when I smelled it, I got the unmistakable smell of maderization. Tasting the wine confirmed that it was indeed displaying all the signs of heat damage, though beneath the flavors of stewed tomatoes one could taste the lovely fruit that I’d expected. Well, fuck, on to the backup bottle, wondering all the while how 1 of 4 bottles of identical provenance could be heat damaged.

Imagine my surprise, then, when cleaning up later that night I revisited the wine, pouring myself a small sip before dumping the contents and discovered a fresh and lively bottle of Syrah with no traces of maderization! The bottle had sat open on the countertop for 3-4 hours at that point. Now, I’ve certainly heard of wines that tasted oxidized on opening getting younger and fresher with time, but has anyone else experienced maderization “blowing off”? I am totally perplexed.

Mark Lipton
 
Blowing off is not the term I’d use. Changing, oh yes.
From oxidation to bottle stink to spritz to mercaptans to VA; all have changed for the better with air. Sometimes.

But Steve Edmunds once told me that you can always dump a wine but you can’t get it back once it’s gone. So these days, I often set aside a wine, especially an older one, that shows poorly early on. And have had reasonable success.

Heaven knows why.
 
you'd be the last person here to get your symptoms mixed up (particularly with the cork smelling the way it did), so count me in the perplexed camp as well
 
but, Jim, he said maderized, not oxidized.
I've witness countless miraculous recoveries from initial oxidation, especially when the wine had a solid fresh/long finish that Mark may be implying this bottle did.
Not when maderized though.
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
Blowing off is not the term I’d use. Changing, oh yes.
From oxidation to bottle stink to spritz to mercaptans to VA; all have changed for the better with air. Sometimes.

But Steve Edmunds once told me that you can always dump a wine but you can’t get it back once it’s gone. So these days, I often set aside a wine, especially an older one, that shows poorly early on. And have had reasonable success.

Heaven knows why.
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Yes, hold onto it. Ya never know.

In my Top 5 WTF wine moments was when a friend brought a bottle of '77 Louis Martini Special Selection Cab to dinner at my house. There was no question in any of our minds (palates?) that it was corked. Like a typically TCA'd wine, it got worse with more air. Put the cork back in and moved along.

Next day, I decided to check it out. The "TCA" had totally disappeared. I mean totally, no hint of it. The wine was absolutely delicious.
 
originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
but, Jim, he said maderized, not oxidized.
I've witness countless miraculous recoveries from initial oxidation, especially when the wine had a solid fresh/long finish that Mark may be implying this bottle did.
Not when maderized though.
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Understood.

I was once invited to a blind tasting where the first flight was 2 whites and 2 reds. The second was the same.
We later learned that the wines were exactly the same in each flight and served in the same order.
Only difference was that the bottles from flight one had spent five continuous months in the trunk of a car during summer in Florida. The second flight was pristine.
All bottles in the first flight were preferred..

Perhaps, flight one was not maderized in the same way or degree as Mark’s but there can be little doubt that it was heat damaged.

While I may be comparing apples and oranges, what I’m trying to say is that maderization can present itself in differing ways. And the influence of air on such wines is really not predictable. At least, not in my experience.

Your mileage may vary.
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
...the bottles from flight one had spent five continuous months in the trunk of a car during summer in Florida. The second flight was pristine.
All bottles in the first flight were preferred..
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That's some serious exposure! 5 months in FL summer!

How long since the Exposure Summer had it been when you drank the wines? If 'heat damage' makes wines more advanced, they can be open and more friendly in the short-run, but then develop in wonky ways more long-term?
 
About 3 months.

And while I’m sure there are a lot of valid general statements about damaged wine, I have come to think of them as just guidelines - wine can fool you. It has me.
 
Definitely, wine can fool most anyone.

Given that a maderized has seen heat, color may (or may not) be an indicator of a wine being maderized. What other indicators might distinguish a maderized wine from, say, an oxidized wine?

. . . . . Pete
 
originally posted by Peter Creasey:

Definitely, wine can fool most anyone.

Given that a maderized has seen heat, color may (or may not) be an indicator of a wine being maderized. What other indicators might distinguish a maderized wine from, say, an oxidized wine?

. . . . . Pete
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Since maderization includes an element oxidation, many of the same indicators that are present in oxidized wine.
For me, maderization often has a pruny or raisiny character combined with a straw or brackish note and the fruit is dull or stewed.
But the degree to which any of these (or other) factors show may make it difficult to isolate so specifically.
Or that’s what I think . . .
 
Maderized, to me, means "cooked," which doesn't necessarily apply to "oxidized." Since heat tends to move up, and chill, down, I wonder if the headspace had gotten warm, but the wine, itself, hadn't sustained so much heat. Just a thought.

And so glad I wasn't at that tasting!
 
also, how much time spent parked in the sun, and what was the colour of the car?

there would be worlds of difference in the temperature experienced, between a white car parked in shade and a black car parked in the sun.
 
originally posted by robert ames:
also, how much time spent parked in the sun, and what was the colour of the car?

there would be worlds of difference in the temperature experienced, between a white car parked in shade and a black car parked in the sun.
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There is no shade that can keep wine anywhere close to 55F in a FL summer. I would guess that wine had to be at least 80F, or more, for long stretches. Which is unreal given how most of us would go to great lengths to avoid that!
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
...one had spent five continuous months in the trunk of a car during summer in Florida.
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Who needs the estufagem process when you can live in Florida?
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by robert ames:
also, how much time spent parked in the sun, and what was the colour of the car?

there would be worlds of difference in the temperature experienced, between a white car parked in shade and a black car parked in the sun.
Click to expand...

There is no shade that can keep wine anywhere close to 55F in a FL summer. I would guess that wine had to be at least 80F, or more, for long stretches. Which is unreal given how most of us would go to great lengths to avoid that!
Click to expand...

55 is way below the temp which will damage a wine. the warmer the wine the faster the chemical processes that occur in aging, but, while i defer to others more involved in the process, i'd be surprised to see actual heat damage below 75 degrees or so. just accelerated maturation.
 
FWIW, there are a number of calculators on the internet that will give you interior vehicle temps on, say a 90 degree day, in sun or in shade. Almost all of those calculators estimate interior temps (cab or trunk) at over 100 degrees F in sun or shade if the vehicle is left outside all day.
That was the case in the example noted above.
Pushed corks gave evidence of that fact, although I did not personally see those corks, the presenters told us that was the case.

Perhaps, my example was poor; I was only attempting to point out that maderization can manifest itself in several different ways. Nothing more.

Best, Jim
 
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