TN: MWC Pulls Out The Stops (June 7, 2023)

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by scottreiner:

originally posted by Marc Hanes:
Too bad I was in Wisconsin visiting my in-laws 'cause I ain't buying no $69 Albariño even with my employee discount! Yeesh.

Forjas del Salnes, Rodriguez Vazquez (esp Escolma), Leirana, Zarate, Alabamar, and Nanclares, all make expensive Albarinos that are worth every penny. While they may not be, for me, everyday wines, they are brilliant wines and I drink them whenever I can.

Too bad they all block malos.

Why’s that, O.?

Mark Lipton

Otherwise the whites from there (and from the neighboring Douro) would lack acidity, since the climate is generally too warm for balance without intervention. They are, indeed, often delish, if one doesn't mind the sometimes bracing, even strident character of malic, but there are enough producers in climates that don't require systematic intervention.

Sorry I wasn’t clearer. I know why they block malo; I was interested in why you considered that a negative. Is it on purely philosophical grounds, or is there an organoleptic objection?

Mark Lipton

Ah, sorry, yes, there is a multiple objection. The best Portuguese white wine producer that I know claims to be able to identify wines in which the malo was blocked. And utterly despises them. I am not confident of my ability to spot same, but there is often something harsh about the acidity of Galician and northern Portuguese whites. Malic is certainly harsher than tartaric.

I also object to it on philosophical grounds, since it's just as much an intervention as chaptalization or acidification or nfo. Sharon used to think I was being precious in my recurring (and perhaps pet, because uncommon) objection to blocked malos; it's in the public record. So be it. My precious. I know that the guys in question have to make a living with what the weather gives them, but I'd rather put my Euros to work supporting producers who are less goal-oriented.

As you know from prior exchanges, there are wines vinified at certain temperatures that will not go through malo. There are others where the process has to be encouraged. Does vinifying at higher temps to allow malo or using other methods to enforce it also run counter to your programmatic (a more accurate word than philosophical) objections? Also, whereas not liking to much acid is comprehensible, do you also like buttered popcorn on your chardonnay? Do you not drink Chenin blanc? Do you prefer Rieslings that have gone through malic?

I agree that programmatic is a better term. Assuming you want an answer, I don't consider it an intervention if a wine does not go through malo because the cellar temperature is (naturally) very cold. Or because there's not enough malic to fire up the bacteria. But if cold or heat is generated to induce or prevent malo, of course that's an intervention, just as much as sterile filtration. So, from a programmatic pov, a pov that is obviously important to me, any intervention to induce or block malo is equivalent to any intervention to increase or decrease acidity or sweetness or generate extraneous oak flavors and textures. But I wouldn't mind any of these interventions if all I cared about was flavor.

This seems to me to be a slippery slope, O. Isn’t digging a subterranean cave to vinify your wine then also an intervention? Shouldn’t the cuves or amphorae or concrete eggs be situated close to the fields, in a shed or something?

Mark Lipton

Yes, Mark, a slippery slope into absurdity. I suppose digging a subterranean cave for the express purpose of blocking malo would be an intervention, but that would be ridiculous, as you no doubt realize.

What makes something an intervention, in my book, is the goal-driven attitude, rather than the willingness to let nature do its thing. But you might say, left to nature, wine will become vinegar. So, allow me to go back to (my) first principles:

What do I want in a wine, on top of being delicious? I want it to be what it "wants" to be, not what the maker wants it to be. Because I want it to express where it comes from, not the imposition of the maker’s esthetic goals. There’s blurriness there, I know. An analogy that works for me is raising children. I want to help my children be what they want to be rather than what I want them to be. But if they get sick, I will call the doctor because being sick may be natural, but it might prevent them becoming what they want to become. So, I prefer wines where the winemaker does the bare minimum to prevent them from becoming defective, but not things that will make it different from what it “wants” to be. Though the difference between process-driven and goal-driven can be blurry, that doesn’t make the distinction less useful. To me at least.

What the wine wants to be can never be wholly divorced from the winemaker’s goals, methinks. It starts with the choice of vineyard location, continues with the choice of grape type, clonal selection, rootstock, planting density, training method, etc. “indigenous” yeasts have been shown to be an ecosystem that changes with time and includes often “cultured” yeasts that have taken residence in the winemaking facility. Since fermentations get quite hot, temperature control is used for more reasons than just blocking malo. I think most full malo Chardonnays get some cooling.

Mark Lipton

Agreed, in much the same way that what a child wants to be can never be wholly divorced from the parents' goals. But that doesn't stop me from trying to equip my children to be who they want to be, even if that runs counter to my desires and ambitions for them. But it's certainly true that, in wine, the winemaker has to make many choices, like the ones you mention, otherwise the wine cannot be made. But maybe we can distinguish between unavoidable choices and purely voluntary/elective ones?

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
By reading through your messages, I think I'm beginning to see the basis of the problem, Oswaldo. You are immersed in a sea of what you think (for all I know, rightly) to be mediocre, tooty fruity wine. Part of the problem is that, since those wines don't go through malolactic, tendencies that might already be there are enhanced. Thus, malolactic is intervention. But, as you know, there's a large winemaking world outside of Portugal and, in different environments, different practices have different effects. I generally prefer Rhone wines that are not destemmed. I know that Overnoy practiced destemming. I still like Overnoy wines. Steroids, used to build muscles, are dangerous drugs. They may also be used as medications to promote healing. This is why I am against programmatic judgements. I like my wine to taste like wine and I often joke about wines being overoaked and underwined.But I am always dubious about taking rules of thumb for commandments written on stone.

Your resistance to programmatic judgments is useful to me, but it also seems clear that the type of cold fermenting used to create tutti frutti flavors and the blocking of malo are of a different (categorical?) order than the choice of destemming or not, or the choices listed by Mark (choice of grape type, clonal selection, rootstock, planting density, training method). Wine cannot be made at all without the latter, whereas the former are entirely elective and not, by any stretch of the imagination, reflective of place.

That said, destemming would an interesting test case. Since wine can perfectly well be made without destemming, the choice to destem could be labeled an intervention according to the above line of thinking. Which seems a bit much. So programmatic thinking can, indeed, lead one to an undesirably mechanistic understanding of the world.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

"but it also seems clear that the type of cold fermenting used to create tutti frutti flavors and the blocking of malo are of a different (categorical?) order than the choice of destemming or not,"

Stipulating, again, that what you say of Portuguese wines is correct, my point was that avoiding malo to create those flavors are different from avoiding malo elsewhere, and rules about malo should be no more categorical than rules about destemming. The site about the Loire winemaker who thinks that avoiding malo shouldn't be categorical either (a position with which I agree) is a case in point. Some of his wines don't go through malo, some go through partial malo. I haven't tasted his wines, but I don't think his choices are any more spoofy than whether to destem, to destem partially, to destem sometimes but not always, and never to destem. What was your point in giving me the link?

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
"but it also seems clear that the type of cold fermenting used to create tutti frutti flavors and the blocking of malo are of a different (categorical?) order than the choice of destemming or not,"

Stipulating, again, that what you say of Portuguese wines is correct, my point was that avoiding malo to create those flavors are different from avoiding malo elsewhere, and rules about malo should be no more categorical than rules about destemming. The site about the Loire winemaker who thinks that avoiding malo shouldn't be categorical either (a position with which I agree) is a case in point. Some of his wines don't go through malo, some go through partial malo. I haven't tasted his wines, but I don't think his choices are any more spoofy than whether to destem, to destem partially, to destem sometimes but not always, and never to destem. What was your point in giving me the link?

Wasn't trying to make any point, just thought you might find the contents of the link interesting, as did I. The link doesn't take sides, but they do say that blocking of malo (unlike destemming) is a controversial subject.

As for the first part, you are conflating two separate things: one does not avoid malo to create flavors, one cold ferments to create flavors; one blocks malo to increase the perception of acidity, because lactic registers as less acidic than malic. If a producers deliberately does both things, that's even worse in my book. But your point still stands that rules about malo should be no more categorical than rules about destemming. Non-categorically, then, my problem with blocking malo with SO2 or sterile filtration, above and beyond the harshness of malic, is that it's cheating just as much as reverse osmosis, since it is meant to compensate for something that the climate doesn't provide naturally. Destemming, otoh, I don't see as covering up for any inadequacy.

One further thought: I understand that sometimes malo doesn't happen not just because cellars are cold but because there is not much lactic acid in the grapes for malolactic bacteria to chew on. In that case, a wine in which malo did not take place naturally will not have the higher amounts of malic that wines in which it was induced may have.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

It may be true that cold fermented station has other effects th a stoppingmalo, but it always will stop malo. This it is proper to talk about doing both things. The fact that one could stop mall some other way is nothing to the point. If you ferment below 68F, you will not have fermentation.I leave to others to decide for themselves whether cold fermentation is in excess of allowable intervention as we are going on circles.I may have a pal pros in the debate so 've O put .uk sourdough I to the fridge overnight for its final rising, though as much for convenience as for flavor.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
It may be true that cold fermented station has other effects th a stoppingmalo, but it always will stop malo. This it is proper to talk about doing both things. The fact that one could stop mall some other way is nothing to the point. If you ferment below 68F, you will not have fermentation.I leave to others to decide for themselves whether cold fermentation is in excess of allowable intervention as we are going on circles.I may have a pal pros in the debate so 've O put .uk sourdough I to the fridge overnight for its final rising, though as much for convenience as for flavor.

Your grammar and spelling really do need work. Afaik, and winemakers here can correct me if I am wrong, cold fermentation by itself does not stop malo from happening later because malo ordinarily happens after primary fermentation, sometimes quite a bit later, when the temperature goes back to whatever the local room temperature is and the weather gets warmer during élevage. That's why it is called secondary.

 

[Florida Jim]

Strictly my experience here:
I had a rose that was in primary fermentation in barrel for over 100 days and well into December in an unheated barrel room. I do not know the temperature in that room but I wore a jacket in November and December. Sonoma in Nov./Dec. is chilly.
The wine did not go through malo (the malic acid numbers were high) until the following May and completed it by mid-June, just in time for bottling.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

Well, my typing on a tablet does need work. As I understand it, cold fermentation entails fermenting cold until one is done vinifying. Cuves left at room temperature would get cooler rather than warmer, and then, a la Jim warmer, depending on climate and weather, but that is not cold fermentation, which is why I suppose you object to it. But cold fermentation stops malo without any other process. So, if one has done one, one has done the other.

 

[Florida Jim]

Jonathan,
My experience with “cold fermentation” does not fit your definition.

Cold fermentation was simply the process of running primary fermentation at temperatures lower than normal. Primary being the ethanol fermentation of the wine.
However, to complete vinification, the wine must not only complete primary but also secondary (assuming one is not going to stop malo, ie, secondary).
Malo can occur during, immediately after or substantially after primary. It can occur naturally or malolactic bacteria can be added at any time desired.

From my experience, cold fermentation (my usage) does not necessarily result in tutti-frutti aromas and flavors - it can, but that did not happen when I used the technique.
I used it to try to retain the fresh fruit aromas (and to a lesser degree, flavors) of the wines (mostly white and pink) that I was making.
Another thing I liked about cold fermentation was that the process of primary fermentation was extended. And while I’m unaware of any objective evidence to support my reasoning, extended and slower fermentations tended to result in different and even more complex wines than those fermented hot. Fermentation is “where the miracle happens” and extending it seemed to me to be worth trying. I liked it. But there are many who preferred hot fermentations and the wines they produced.
To each is everlovin’ blue-eyed own.

There is much about the vinification process I have forgotten; I don’t do it anymore nor do I intend to try it again. But you are correct in saying that cold temperatures inhibit malolactic fermentation. What happens when those temperatures rise is a matter of what bacteria, malic acid, additions and the ambient environment are present in the vessel containing the wine. Sometimes what happens can be a surprise to the winemaker.
It’s a learning experience to be sure.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Florida Jim:
Jonathan,

From my experience, cold fermentation (my usage) does not necessarily result in tutti-frutti aromas and flavors - it can, but that did not happen when I used the

Right. I always thought that the fruity/floral characteristics that O (and many of us) objects to depends on which strain of selected S. cerevisiae you use rather than simply controlling temperature.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Florida Jim:
Jonathan,

From my experience, cold fermentation (my usage) does not necessarily result in tutti-frutti aromas and flavors - it can, but that did not happen when I used the

Right. I always thought that the fruity/floral characteristics that O (and many of us) objects to depends on which strain of selected S. cerevisiae you use rather than simply controlling temperature.

The strain could well play a role, though the explanations I've received have not included that.

I suspect that temperatures used by industrial Vinho Verde producers are much lower than those that Jim is talking about. The latter is more about controlling room temperature fermentation, which can get quite hot and has much greater bacteriological dangers, rather than generating certain flavors.

 

[Florida Jim]

Oswaldo,
I seem to remember some criticism leveled at Georges Debeouf for using a single yeast strain in his front line Beaujolais’ that gave them a “banana” smell and flavor. Whether true or not, yeast purveyors do advertise their various strains as having attributes that create certain aromas and flavors thought to be desirable.

 

[Florida Jim]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:


I suspect that temperatures used by industrial Vinho Verde producers are much lower than those that Jim is talking about. The latter is more about controlling room temperature fermentation, which can get quite hot and has much greater bacteriological dangers, rather than generating certain flavors.

This is a topic I’d like to learn more about.

If we assume that industrial Vinho Verde producers are doing their primary fermentation in very large stainless tanks and that such tanks are jacketed so that coolant can be run through the jacket thereby affecting the temperature of the tank’s contents, it seems we have a very precise method of controlling and adjusting temperature throughout fermentation.
It has been 5 years since I used such techniques and I have no doubt that temperature control technology has advanced. But I don’t think it’s as simple as the above assumption.

Any fermentation, whether just juice or juice and skins together, creates heat. And as the yeast population and activity increases, so does the temperature in the tank. What I found was that the temperature reported on the exterior gauge of the tank was accurate to about 4-5 inches from the tank wall. But as you sampled temperatures manually farther toward the center of the ferment, the temperatures were higher, sometimes, markedly so.
As a for instance, in 2011 I had a ferment where the juice near the wall was 62F but in the very center of the tank the temp was 95F. This was in a tank containing about 600 gallons of juice.
Each ferment’s chemistry and kinetics are different but it would seem logical that as the volume of fermenting juice increases, so does its thermal mass. And the greater the thermal mass the more difficult it is to cool the juice. Or such is my surmise.
I have seen fermentations in 100,000 gallon tanks with several exterior gauges that report temp in different parts of the tank. But I always wonder how homogenous the temperature of the juice really is. And how far the temperature probes extend into the tank.

If anyone can shine any light on this, I’d love to listen.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Florida Jim:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:


I suspect that temperatures used by industrial Vinho Verde producers are much lower than those that Jim is talking about. The latter is more about controlling room temperature fermentation, which can get quite hot and has much greater bacteriological dangers, rather than generating certain flavors.

This is a topic I’d like to learn more about.

If we assume that industrial Vinho Verde producers are doing their primary fermentation in very large stainless tanks and that such tanks are jacketed so that coolant can be run through the jacket thereby affecting the temperature of the tank’s contents, it seems we have a very precise method of controlling and adjusting temperature throughout fermentation.
It has been 5 years since I used such techniques and I have no doubt that temperature control technology has advanced. But I don’t think it’s as simple as the above assumption.

Any fermentation, whether just juice or juice and skins together, creates heat. And as the yeast population and activity increases, so does the temperature in the tank. What I found was that the temperature reported on the exterior gauge of the tank was accurate to about 4-5 inches from the tank wall. But as you sampled temperatures manually farther toward the center of the ferment, the temperatures were higher, sometimes, markedly so.
As a for instance, in 2011 I had a ferment where the juice near the wall was 62F but in the very center of the tank the temp was 95F. This was in a tank containing about 600 gallons of juice.
Each ferment’s chemistry and kinetics are different but it would seem logical that as the volume of fermenting juice increases, so does its thermal mass. And the greater the thermal mass the more difficult it is to cool the juice. Or such is my surmise.
I have seen fermentations in 100,000 gallon tanks with several exterior gauges that report temp in different parts of the tank. But I always wonder how homogenous the temperature of the juice really is. And how far the temperature probes extend into the tank.

If anyone can shine any light on this, I’d love to listen.

Jim, you’ve hit upon one of the central issues in chemical engineering: heat exchange. Large reactors (read: fermentation tanks) have a reduced surface-to-volume ratio (for the mathematically minded, S scales as r^2 whereas V scales as r^3). Because heat flux in a heat exchanger (i.e., cooling bath) is proportional to surface area, heat exchange becomes less efficient as you increase the size. Compounding this, as you note, is inhomogeneity, where the interior of the reactor is less effectively heated/cooled.

The solution, such as it is, is to promote mixing via stirring, so that the interior and the exterior mix efficiently. It’s not a perfect solution, as the kinetics of heat exchange may still be unfavorable. The only better alternative is to change the geometry of the reactor/fermenter, going to a more coil-like structure. In industry now, “continuous flow” reactors in which the reaction mixture is piped through tubing is all the rage now, but not very practical for fermenter design.

Mark Lipton (glad he’s only vinifying 10 vines)

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

I'll see if I can find out more about industrial techniques and intended temperatures in these here parts.

 

[Florida Jim]

Mark,
We used a very small version of continuous flow where we pumped juice into a coil that was submerged in dry ice. I saw one fellow use it almost like delestage so that once the wine went through the coil, the wine was sprayed across the top of the fermenting must it came out of.
Cooled the juice and aerated it all at once.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

My preliminary research shows that cold maceration temperatures for Vinho Verde are around 5 Celsius, going up to 10 Celsius, for up to 10 days. Only after that does cold fermentation take place, in the 15 to 20 Celsius range. So, what I earlier called the much colder fermentation practiced by the Vinho Verde tutti frutti gang was a much colder maceration, aka a cold soak. Doesn't kill any bacteria; they just lie dormant until the temperature rises, when the industrial producers inoculate to avoid taking any risks (which goes to Mark E's point that they may go hand in hand).

So far I haven't found anything about how they equalize the temperature inside the vessels.

 

[Florida Jim]

Interestingly, I used to cold soak out of necessity - sometimes other grapes arrived at our winery first and, therefore, I used dry ice and covered the picking bins with plastic and then placed the bins in the cold room until we could get to them. That could be hours or days depending on winery operations.
Whether this yielded any significant differences in the finished product is very hard to detect - or at least, it was for me.
But of course, there are Burgundy producers that use the technique and claim significant differences because of it.
Maybe, maybe not . . .
Thanks for the research.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Florida Jim:
Another thing I liked about cold fermentation was that the process of primary fermentation was extended. And while I’m unaware of any objective evidence to support my reasoning, extended and slower fermentations tended to result in different and even more complex wines than those fermented hot. Fermentation is “where the miracle happens” and extending it seemed to me to be worth trying.

Makers in Burgundy often say this, too. The usual way they accomplish it is by adding a degree of sugar, so the yeastie-beasties chew for longer. (I cannot say whether this is a habit leftover from days of yore when there was no good tank cooling technology, or they were just happy to pretend their grapes were riper and get more alcohol.)

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by Florida Jim:
Jonathan,

Another thing I liked about cold fermentation was that the process of primary fermentation was extended. And while I’m unaware of any objective evidence to support my reasoning, extended and slower fermentations tended to result in different and even more complex wines than those fermented hot. Fermentation is “where the miracle happens” and extending it seemed to me to be worth trying. I liked it. But there are many who preferred hot fermentations and the wines they produced.

This is the standard reason for letting bread do its final rise in a refrigerator overnight. My experience is that it does have that effect.