Ridge

[robert ames]

if you are referring to the goode samuel johnson, then yes. how did you arrive at that thought?

and i vote with my wallet -- i have an 1806 printing of his dictionary.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by robert ames:
if you are referring to the goode samuel johnson, then yes. how did you arrive at that thought?

and i vote with my wallet -- i have an 1806 printing of his dictionary.

The very same. Among other things, he is (in)famous for parting company with his liver. But only in a manner of speaking, since his ailment was more of the kidneys. Though if the latter hadn't done him in, the former probably would have. And, of course, he was no fool, since self-destructive behavior is not confined to fools, even though they may be more susceptible. And congrats on the edition, published not so long after his death.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by robert ames:
jonathan--run--do not walk--to your nearest wine shop that carries sang des cailloux vacqueyras. the 2020 doucinello is under 14%. notes in jll quoting the vigneron state 13.75%. in vinous it is stated as 13.9%. so clearly an under-14% southern Rhône. sang des cailloux has been one of my favourites since the 80s.

I buy Sang des Cailloux every year when I am in my house in France. I also drink it as soon as I buy it since my house has no sous-sol so the 20 is long down the hatch. The 22 (Floureto) is listed on the bottle at 14%. It could of course be a point higher or lower.

 

[robert ames]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by robert ames:
jonathan--run--do not walk--to your nearest wine shop that carries sang des cailloux vacqueyras. the 2020 doucinello is under 14%. notes in jll quoting the vigneron state 13.75%. in vinous it is stated as 13.9%. so clearly an under-14% southern Rhône. sang des cailloux has been one of my favourites since the 80s.

I buy Sang des Cailloux every year when I am in my house in France. I also drink it as soon as I buy it since my house has no sous-sol so the 20 is long down the hatch. The 22 (Floureto) is listed on the bottle at 14%. It could of course be a point higher or lower.

if you are referring to the percentage on the front label isn't it French law to label to the nearest 0.5%. the 2000 doucinello is labelled 14%, even though it is below that, per the vigneron, and affirmed by jll.

on the importer's label american law requires it to be accurate to +/- 1.5%. which is why some importer's strip labels state 11%-14%.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

But whenever I hear a winemaker say that new oak flavor goes away, or even integrates, my question always is, then why use it in the first place? It costs money and distorts the wine, all so you can wait for it to go away?

I think what they often mean is that in the young or newly released wine, the oak aroma and flavor is prominent and sometimes overshadows other flavors. But as the wine ages, both the strength and the character of the oak smell/flavor changes; not that it goes away. I.E. there is a young "new oak barrel" flavor and a mature "new oak barrel" flavor, and they are different. And indeed this has been my experience with a number of Napa Cabs, Bordeaux reds, Graves whites and Riojas. Probably other wines I'm not recalling now.

I would add that I don't think this is binary; in my experience although brand new barrels are much stronger, 2 or 3 year old oak barrels can still provide some of that "new oak" effect.

CMM -
I can't argue with anything stated above, but feel compelled to qualify.
I believe, as experienced tasters, we have learned to intuit whether oak is structurally in balance in a newly released wine, whether its flavor is as you say prominent or not. More often than not, this balance will lead to flavor integration down the road. Your citing white graves in particular drove me out of lurking on this thread. They are, at their best, unquestionably oaky wines that - in the past - left little doubt relative to the oak's positive contribution in conjunction with low 12-12.5% abv and healthy levels of acidity and dry extract. This was considerably easier to judge where SB was dominant as semillon has a roundness that may confuse perception. This all started going to hell in the late 90s, where oak became increasingly offensive on release. While I nearly stopped collecting the wines for aforementioned reasons, the few aged examples I have tasted are a mixed bag, oak-wise. I don't believe the oak regime had changed, but the climate certainly did and consequently so did constituent balance.