Domaine Anita Beaujolais

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Brézème:
I am not journalist, but some random transactions I heard of(either buyer or seller) :
- Chateau de la Chaize (150 ha, Brouilly , Cotes de Brouilly, Fleurie, Morgon,...), Very much in Anita's style, same consultants
- Domaine Rolet (60ha, Arbois),
- Chandon de Briailles (Domaine des Moriers 20ish ha, Fleurie, Morgon, Moulin à vent, Chiroubles)

Thanks.

Ch“teau de la Chaize is the largest estate in the Beaujolais. The new owners have no previous wine experience and so far all I've been able to find out about the future is that the estate will go organic, which is a big positive to me. It so happens that I've had a couple of bottles of Ch. de la Chaize in the last several months (eating in restaurants where everything else on the list was objectionable), and the wines were not memorable.

My experience with Rolet (again, a very large estate) and the new owner, Devillard, is that it won't get worse and probably will get better.

I'll be writing Chandon-de-Briailles to shortly, as soon as I get my comments on their 2022s up, and see what I can find out. I would point out that Claude de Nicolaÿ's husband is Frédéric Drouhin of Joseph Drouhin and Drouhin has long/always made its Beaujolais the traditional way. And we can expect organic and probably biodynamic under the new regime, again big positives for me.

At this point, I'm much more worried about the invasion of ultra-rich people (such as Pinault) in Burgundy than I am about Beaujolais and Jura.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by BJ:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by BJ:
Let's all agree - JP is the best.

Fuggedaboutit. Maybe the best non-carbonic, which is atypical.

I thought we went through all this before...I think he's traditional Beaujolais on the crus for sure. To me the Terres Dorees Beaujolais from down south tastes Burgundian (not my fave).

The one I thought was non-carbonic and you corrected me was Coudert (did you have to remind everybody?).

 

[BJ]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by BJ:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by BJ:
Let's all agree - JP is the best.

Fuggedaboutit. Maybe the best non-carbonic, which is atypical.

I thought we went through all this before...I think he's traditional Beaujolais on the crus for sure. To me the Terres Dorees Beaujolais from down south tastes Burgundian (not my fave).

The one I thought was non-carbonic and you corrected me was Coudert (did you have to remind everybody?).

Sorry dude, wasn't trying to call you out. But I think we've had the convo about Brun too..."we" meaning WT.

I had a long visit with JP once...he is not dogmatic about vinification and while my memory is vague (15 years ago) I think he did a couple of Burgundian style vinifications, but for his crus I'm pretty sure it's straight ahead old school Beaujolais, using concrete tanks.

 

[BJ]

Well...I'm wrong! Hadn't seen this interview with JP before. What a guy. What he says about naturelle is perfect. https://louisdressner.com/articles/an-interview-with-jean-paul-brun-

 

[BJ]

Sure doesn't taste that way to me but just goes to show generalizations are dangerous and what matters is what's in the glass...

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by BJ:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by BJ:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by BJ:
Let's all agree - JP is the best.

Fuggedaboutit. Maybe the best non-carbonic, which is atypical.

I thought we went through all this before...I think he's traditional Beaujolais on the crus for sure. To me the Terres Dorees Beaujolais from down south tastes Burgundian (not my fave).

The one I thought was non-carbonic and you corrected me was Coudert (did you have to remind everybody?).

Sorry dude, wasn't trying to call you out. But I think we've had the convo about Brun too..."we" meaning WT.

I had a long visit with JP once...he is not dogmatic about vinification and while my memory is vague (15 years ago) I think he did a couple of Burgundian style vinifications, but for his crus I'm pretty sure it's straight ahead old school Beaujolais, using concrete tanks.

Not sure what you mean by old school straight-ahead, but Burgundian style is not what I want in Beaujolais (or in the Jura).

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by BJ:
Sure doesn't taste that way to me but just goes to show generalizations are dangerous and what matters is what's in the glass...

Most of the time carbonic v. non-carbonic tastes completely different. But not always. A few days ago, a 2015 Thivin Griottes de Brouilhé was really lovely, but did not smell or taste semi-carbonic (which it supposedly is).

 

[BJ]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by BJ:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by BJ:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by BJ:
Let's all agree - JP is the best.

Fuggedaboutit. Maybe the best non-carbonic, which is atypical.

I thought we went through all this before...I think he's traditional Beaujolais on the crus for sure. To me the Terres Dorees Beaujolais from down south tastes Burgundian (not my fave).

The one I thought was non-carbonic and you corrected me was Coudert (did you have to remind everybody?).

Sorry dude, wasn't trying to call you out. But I think we've had the convo about Brun too..."we" meaning WT.

I had a long visit with JP once...he is not dogmatic about vinification and while my memory is vague (15 years ago) I think he did a couple of Burgundian style vinifications, but for his crus I'm pretty sure it's straight ahead old school Beaujolais, using concrete tanks.

Not sure what you mean by old school straight-ahead, but Burgundian style is not what I want in Beaujolais (or in the Jura).

Full disclosure, my technical winemaking understanding and how it impacts taste is not that advanced. I do enough technical stuff at the office.

In that linked article, JP describes his winemaking as "Burgundian". What that actually means is probably a good question.

 

[BJ]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by BJ:
Sure doesn't taste that way to me but just goes to show generalizations are dangerous and what matters is what's in the glass...

Most of the time carbonic v. non-carbonic tastes completely different. But not always. A few days ago, a 2015 Thivin Griottes de Brouilhé was really lovely, but did not smell or taste semi-carbonic (which it supposedly is).

I know! Yes. Brun in one direction, Thivin in the other.

I honestly don't love Thivin. I've never had a bottle that I just totally fell for. More appreciate than enjoy. There's something about the density that I can't get past.

 

[Steve Edmunds]

BJ' it's my impression they age very nicely, and are more lovely for it

 

[BJ]

originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
BJ' it's my impression they age very nicely, and are more lovely for it

Steve, I've tried aging them, but never had good luck.

I do love their rose.

I've actually liked Pavillon de Chavannes better - there was a familial split a few decades back and they split vineyards but share a similar label. I sense Pavillon ages in larger neutral vessel while Thivin ages in small barrel.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by BJ:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by BJ:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by BJ:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by BJ:
Let's all agree - JP is the best.

Fuggedaboutit. Maybe the best non-carbonic, which is atypical.

I thought we went through all this before...I think he's traditional Beaujolais on the crus for sure. To me the Terres Dorees Beaujolais from down south tastes Burgundian (not my fave).

The one I thought was non-carbonic and you corrected me was Coudert (did you have to remind everybody?).

Sorry dude, wasn't trying to call you out. But I think we've had the convo about Brun too..."we" meaning WT.

I had a long visit with JP once...he is not dogmatic about vinification and while my memory is vague (15 years ago) I think he did a couple of Burgundian style vinifications, but for his crus I'm pretty sure it's straight ahead old school Beaujolais, using concrete tanks.

Not sure what you mean by old school straight-ahead, but Burgundian style is not what I want in Beaujolais (or in the Jura).

Full disclosure, my technical winemaking understanding and how it impacts taste is not that advanced. I do enough technical stuff at the office.

In that linked article, JP describes his winemaking as "Burgundian". What that actually means is probably a good question.

Afaik, when winemakers in Beaujolais say their winemaking is Burgundian, they just mean straight-ahead (but not old school, for Beaujolais). Chateau de Jacques is an example of Burgundian style. Brun is another. In the Côte Roannaise, Sérol is another (they also have some amphora cuvées; atypical, but excellent).

 

[BJ]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by BJ:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by BJ:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by BJ:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by BJ:
Let's all agree - JP is the best.

Fuggedaboutit. Maybe the best non-carbonic, which is atypical.

I thought we went through all this before...I think he's traditional Beaujolais on the crus for sure. To me the Terres Dorees Beaujolais from down south tastes Burgundian (not my fave).

The one I thought was non-carbonic and you corrected me was Coudert (did you have to remind everybody?).

Sorry dude, wasn't trying to call you out. But I think we've had the convo about Brun too..."we" meaning WT.

I had a long visit with JP once...he is not dogmatic about vinification and while my memory is vague (15 years ago) I think he did a couple of Burgundian style vinifications, but for his crus I'm pretty sure it's straight ahead old school Beaujolais, using concrete tanks.

Not sure what you mean by old school straight-ahead, but Burgundian style is not what I want in Beaujolais (or in the Jura).

Full disclosure, my technical winemaking understanding and how it impacts taste is not that advanced. I do enough technical stuff at the office.

In that linked article, JP describes his winemaking as "Burgundian". What that actually means is probably a good question.

Afaik, when winemakers in Beaujolais say their winemaking is Burgundian, they just mean straight-ahead (but not old school, for Beaujolais). Chateau de Jacques is an example of Burgundian style. Brun is another. In the Côte Roannaise, Sérol is another (they also have some amphora cuvées; atypical, but excellent).

It's weird how different the Jadot vs Brun wines end up given that.

Desvignes is another in that camp but to me more like Jadot...

 

[Steve Edmunds]

BJ, I visited Thivin in '02, and I don't remember small barrels there at that time. Did the property change hands? I don't know how old Claude might be now, but it's hard to imagine him, or his kids, making a hard pivot like that.

 

[BJ]

originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
BJ, I visited Thivin in '02, and I don't remember small barrels there at that time. Did the property change hands? I don't know how old Claude might be now, but it's hard to imagine him, or his kids, making a hard pivot like that.

Hey Steve, we similarly visited Thivin...maybe about five years later? We definitely saw big rows of small barrels...but now looking at their website I see both barrels and large casks.

 

[BJ]

Looks like the Zaccharie is barrel raised, others maybe the biggies.

I am still not the biggest fan of the wine honestly...but I think I'm an outlier. I've tried to age it into submission but not had great luck.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by BJ:

I've actually liked Pavillon de Chavannes better - there was a familial split a few decades back and they split vineyards but share a similar label. I sense Pavillon ages in larger neutral vessel while Thivin ages in small barrel.

Ah, that explains it! There's a bistrot here in Paris (with a very well-chosen wine list) that serves as their house Côte de Brouilly a wine that I first thought was Thivin because of the label, but turned out not to be Thivin. Looking at the Pavillon de Chavannes website, it appears that the latest vintage wines now bear a different label.

 

[BJ]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by BJ:

I've actually liked Pavillon de Chavannes better - there was a familial split a few decades back and they split vineyards but share a similar label. I sense Pavillon ages in larger neutral vessel while Thivin ages in small barrel.

Ah, that explains it! There's a bistrot here in Paris (with a very well-chosen wine list) that serves as their house Côte de Brouilly a wine that I first thought was Thivin because of the label, but turned out not to be Thivin. Looking at the Pavillon de Chavannes website, it appears that the latest vintage wines now bear a different label.

Did you like it Claude? I've liked it a lot across a number of vintages - elegant - but the one vintage I aged (2009) did not age well at all, though it was delightful young.

It reminds me a bit of Morgon Charmes.

 

[Brian C]

originally posted by BJ:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by BJ:

I've actually liked Pavillon de Chavannes better - there was a familial split a few decades back and they split vineyards but share a similar label. I sense Pavillon ages in larger neutral vessel while Thivin ages in small barrel.

Ah, that explains it! There's a bistrot here in Paris (with a very well-chosen wine list) that serves as their house Côte de Brouilly a wine that I first thought was Thivin because of the label, but turned out not to be Thivin. Looking at the Pavillon de Chavannes website, it appears that the latest vintage wines now bear a different label.

Did you like it Claude? I've liked it a lot across a number of vintages - elegant - but the one vintage I aged (2009) did not age well at all, though it was delightful young.

It reminds me a bit of Morgon Charmes.

In my experience, they are lovely with age. Also in my experience, virtually no 2009s were lovely with age.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by BJ:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by BJ:

I've actually liked Pavillon de Chavannes better - there was a familial split a few decades back and they split vineyards but share a similar label. I sense Pavillon ages in larger neutral vessel while Thivin ages in small barrel.

Ah, that explains it! There's a bistrot here in Paris (with a very well-chosen wine list) that serves as their house Côte de Brouilly a wine that I first thought was Thivin because of the label, but turned out not to be Thivin. Looking at the Pavillon de Chavannes website, it appears that the latest vintage wines now bear a different label.

Did you like it Claude? I've liked it a lot across a number of vintages - elegant - but the one vintage I aged (2009) did not age well at all, though it was delightful young.

It reminds me a bit of Morgon Charmes.

I've never tried it -- there are always other things that interest me more on the list.