Spätburgunderstudy Feb 25th Hainan Chicken House

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by mark e:

Did you taste any wines from Ziereisen in Baden? If so, wondering about your impressions. That is a lot of wine to taste, for sure; hope there was something at the restaurant you could eat.

Ha! I debated for half a second whether I should attend, knowing I wouldn't enjoy the prized chicken. But very glad that I went. They did a pescatarian menu for me that was delicious (and had more than one person envying my razor clams)

There was a Ziereisen but it didn't stand out and I forget which bottling. I haven't loved them in the past, not enough elegance for me. But I suppose I haven't given them a comprehensive try. Are you a fan?

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Robert Dentice:

I do agree that there would have been much more diversity and uniqueness if this would have been done with Burgundy or Oregon for that matter. Yet I do think the regions are starting to develop their own signatures. We had wines from 11 different German regions! That is tough to do with German reds in the U.S...one was technically a Frühburgunder.

The winemakers are still learning a lot about stylistic differences and you can see this with the younger ones like Dostert, next they will focus on Terrior differences.

Fair points. If we analogize regions to Burgundy villages, there are some rough character differences (geography plus localized winemaking similarities). Interesting to watch it extend to vineyards!

originally posted by Robert Dentice:
I think there is a lot of value at the low end price point with German reds. We had many good wines in the $20-35 range. This is a tough price point for Pinot.

Agree. I think it's always been that way in Germany, but the entry level ones weren't getting exported to the US. Now there is (hopefully) a market for them here.

originally posted by Robert Dentice:...the Bertram-Baltes wines, they miraculously arrived the day before. I cracked one for dinner on Saturday and fell in love with it. It was enchanting. Mildly flawed but in a way that made me like it more. I noted an underripe green aspect but it did not bother me. Some of the other wines were even more effected by this trait and they were universally not liked. All four bottles were 3/4 full at the end of the event including one of their top bottlings. I hope it was just attributable to the terrible disaster in 2021.

Bummed I didn't try these, sounds intriguing, if challenging. More wine for the future..

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by Rahsaan:
My shorthand used to be "German clones = Bad", "French clones = Good" (hence the H Koch advantage for many years)

i didn't know that :-)

don't (at least didn't) both holger and klaus-peter have both french and german clones?

i was half-expecting to hear about clones chosen for specific soil

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by Rahsaan:
My shorthand used to be "German clones = Bad", "French clones = Good" (hence the H Koch advantage for many years)

i didn't know that :-)

don't (at least didn't) both holger and klaus-peter have both french and german clones?

i was half-expecting to hear about clones chosen for specific soil

Sure. Again, my shorthand was that the wines labeled Spätburgunder were German clones and the wines labelled Pinot Noir were French clones. Both exist at Koch. But maybe that labeling distinction is outdated.

I'm sure the future is better understanding of specific clones for specific locations. But vine age will also play a role here. If I remember correctly, Koch planted the Burgundy clones in 1999, so one could imagine their best years are yet to come.

 

[georg lauer]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by Rahsaan:
My shorthand used to be "German clones = Bad", "French clones = Good" (hence the H Koch advantage for many years)

i didn't know that :-)

don't (at least didn't) both holger and klaus-peter have both french and german clones?

i was half-expecting to hear about clones chosen for specific soil

Sure. Again, my shorthand was that the wines labeled Spätburgunder were German clones and the wines labelled Pinot Noir were French clones. Both exist at Koch. But maybe that labeling distinction is outdated.

I'm sure the future is better understanding of specific clones for specific locations. But vine age will also play a role here. If I remember correctly, Koch planted the Burgundy clones in 1999, so one could imagine their best years are yet to come.

I am not sure about the planting timeline of the French clones (all in 1999 seems unlikely as that is before they made wine under their own name) but the current win list seems to indicate that all but the basic Kaiserstul is currently from French clones and even the base wine as the only one labeled Spätburgunder has just 55% from German clones.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by georg lauer:
I am not sure about the planting timeline of the French clones (all in 1999 seems unlikely as that is before they made wine under their own name)...

I can't claim knowledge direct from the winemakers. I'm getting info from this retailer info page, which may or may not be accurate.

Key phrase here was "Die Pinot Noir-Rebensämlinge wurden 1999 von den Winzern direkt im Burgund gekauft und in Bickensohl gepflanzt. Dies ist eine revolutionäre Innovation. Während der Pinot Noir am Kaiserstuhl hauptsächlich nach Mostgewicht und Zuckergehalt ausgewählt wurde, wurden im Burgund nur kleine, konzentrierte, würzige und aromatische Reben vermehrt."

 

[Marty L.]

Thank you Rahssan and Robert for the reports. I'm sorry I was out of town and couldn't attend.

On the topic of how these wines age, I can't express a view as to whether it makes sense to put them away for multiple decades, but I've had good luck with 10+ years of bottle age for a couple of these producers. For example, I think the E&M's from 2013 and 2014 are singing right now. They were also delicious on release, and it's eminently sensible to enjoy them in that phase for their brightness, but they've deepened beautifully over time.

I am also a big fan of the Walter wines, which often seem to show great at 10+ years from the vintage. The first one of those bottles that really wowed me was the 2007 Centgrafenberg Pinot 274, in 2017. That said, it gave the impression then of a great bottle of Burgundy with 25-ish years of age on it drinking at it's peak, so who knows how much longer that bottle had or has left. Also, I do worry a bit that the wines all seem to be bottled now under screwcap now and who knows what that means for long-term aging.

Really hope to make the next one of these!

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by mark e:

Did you taste any wines from Ziereisen in Baden? If so, wondering about your impressions. That is a lot of wine to taste, for sure; hope there was something at the restaurant you could eat.

There was a Ziereisen but it didn't stand out and I forget which bottling. I haven't loved them in the past, not enough elegance for me. But I suppose I haven't given them a comprehensive try. Are you a fan?

No, I am not but that is based on pretty limited experience. I just opened 2020 Ziereisen Tschuppen Spätburgunder last week. I found it quite tannic and showing a bit more oak than I cared for (which is zero). Terry Theise had quite recently posted some tasting notes for a number of the wines which you can find here: https://www.terrytheise.com/weingut-ziereisen-2024 .

I also bought a Gutedel from them which I have not tried (based on his note), but usually I only like the Swiss ones. We shall see.

 

[Robert Dentice]

I have tried really hard to like the Ziereisen wines and they just don't do it for me. The expensive ones seem too big and have too much oak, the middle and lower tier are just not exciting. I have a few cases in the cellar and will keep trying.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Robert Dentice:
I have tried really hard to like the Ziereisen wines and they just don't do it for me. The expensive ones seem too big and have too much oak, the middle and lower tier are just not exciting. I have a few cases in the cellar and will keep trying.

Yes, that confirms my note, but I will say I vastly preferred the wine after it had been open for 3 days. Perhaps leave them alone for a few years.

**Update** - The Chasselas (2020 Steinkrũgle) is overoaked. On day 2, the high-toast oak obliterates the underlying fruit.

 

[fatboy]

originally posted by mark e:
Perhaps leave them alone.

fify.

fb.

 

[JasonA]

As luck would have it I was having my own event that same day. Not specifically wine focused but our annual Cassouletfest. One of the standout wines of the evening was a German spätsburgunder, the Thörle Saulheimer Spätsburgunder Kalkstein 2013. An exceptional wine you would mistake for a French burgundy. I have had a few of their wines and I find the Rieslings to also be exceptional

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by JasonA:
As luck would have it I was having my own event that same day. Not specifically wine focused but our annual Cassouletfest. One of the standout wines of the evening was a German spätsburgunder, the Thörle Saulheimer Spätsburgunder Kalkstein 2013. An exceptional wine you would mistake for a French burgundy. I have had a few of their wines and I find the Rieslings to also be exceptional

Nice. I'm slowly becoming a Thörle fan. Someone had a 2015 Thörle at the event on Sunday, one of the single vineyards, I believe the Hölle. I wouldn't have described it as exceptional, and I didn't enjoy it as much as the 2021s, but further study is clearly required!