Concrete Measures to Help the Unemployed

originally posted by Otto Nieminen:
Herbert seemed to like Arabic. Usul = root; 'db = the root (ha ha) for all wisdom related words, including mu'addib (where the mu- prefix is just a nominalising prefix). Dune seems to have enormous amounts of Arab and Islamic ideas and terminology.
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Considering that his history included a "Butlerian jihad," the influence of Arabic culture/language was quite widespread. In fact, the whole ascent of the Fremen can be viewed as allegory for the expansion of Islam during the Golden Age of Islam. (and the sop thrown to Samuel Butler should placate Prof. Loesberg's penchant for the Victorian era) Coincidentally, I was thinking just last night that I needed to augment my collection of Herbert's writings, as I borrowed most of the Dune trilogy when reading them.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by Joe Dressner:
Otto: See you in my office!

Are you selling the Dune books? They're recession-proof.

Which one is your favorite?
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The Dune books indeed do sell well. I've only read the first one. Must get around to reading the others. Are his son's prequels worth reading? Was your first sentence a job offer by any chance?

Mark, is it really an allegory for the spread of Islam starting in the 9thC or the Arab expansion two hundred years earlier? I ask, because what is commonly called the Islamic expansion is a misnomer as Islam wasn't spread; it was a territorial conquest. Arabisation and Islmisation started taking place only later.
 
It's an extended story of the danger of the messianic urge told primarily from the perspective of a messiah ("the myth of the messiah," as Herbert put it) more or less. There's more to it than that, of course, but that will do for a start. I don't think it's a direct allegory for anything Islamic or Arabic except to the extent that there's obviously a lot of influence from both in the cultural setting, language, and so forth.

As for the other books: the first is by far the best, because it had a strong editor during its serial publication in an SF magazine, and Herbert really needed editing. Most people would be happy finishing with that one. But if you stop there you're not getting the full story he wanted to tell (except if you read the first very, very carefully; he does telegraph the rst of the story, but -- and here the editor, who had his own very strong ideas of how SF should be written, probably failed him -- the narrative of the story seems to lead to almost the opposite conclusion). So I think you need to read the second book (Dune Messiah) to finish off the story told in Dune.

If you didn't hate the second, and some do, I'd then read the third one (Children of Dune), and at that point seriously assess how much your time is worth in terms of continuing. The fourth (God Emperor of Dune) has some interesting concepts and a few moments of good writing, but there's an awful lot of ridiculousness to slog through to get to those moments, and I'd say it's a coin-flip. After that (Heretics of Dune, Chapterhouse Dune) they're impenetrable and pointless, and you shouldn't bother.

As for the son's books...a world of no.
 
The only good part of the second book is the return of Duncan, my favorite character.
 
originally posted by Otto Nieminen:

Mark, is it really an allegory for the spread of Islam starting in the 9thC or the Arab expansion two hundred years earlier? I ask, because what is commonly called the Islamic expansion is a misnomer as Islam wasn't spread; it was a territorial conquest. Arabisation and Islmisation started taking place only later.
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No, allegory is a poor choice of wording on my part. Herbert drew on his knowledge of Arabic history and culture in creating the Fremen and some of the story. I see in the overthrow of the Empire by the Fremen a reflection of the expansion of the Caliphate under the Umayyads (your far greater knowledge of this history may lead you to disagree, however). Herbet's use of the term Padishah for the old monarchy also calls to mind the old Persian empire for whatever that's worth.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by Joe_Perry:
The only good part of the second book is the return of Duncan, my favorite character.
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I would have been a much happier person if Herbert just added a few interesting tidbits in the Prequel to Children. It took me 2 years to get through Messiah but I really liked Children and even enjoyed GEofD. I read the rest as well(including some of Brian's disasters) and will never get those wasted hours of my life back.
 
No, no, no, no, and a thousand more iterations thereof. And do not listen to Perry on this subject.

If you must, the SciFi Channel version was much better. But really: no.
 
originally posted by Thor:
No, no, no, no, and a thousand more iterations thereof. And do not listen to Perry on this subject.

If you must, the SciFi Channel version was much better. But really: no.
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I didn't find either satisfying.

For all the firebombs thrown in its direction, I think there are certain cases where the Lynch movie succeeds, particularly in visual and tone. For example I loved the idea of the spacing guild navigators as these sluglike creatures mutated by the spice (and so did Herbert, reportedly), and totally dug the psychedelic scene of the navigator huffing spice and then folding space. I quite liked some of the casting and acting as well.

But there is a lot wrong with it, of course. The weirding modules were almost as lame as that midi-chlorian nonsense in The Phantom Menace. And for such an expensive film, the special effects are just head-scratchingly bad in certain scenes.

I need to try the SFC version again. I tried once and gave up in disgust halfway through. Sure, it followed the book more closely than Lynch's film, but the acting was horrendous, even from veterans like William Hurt.
 
I enjoy Lynch's Dune if I forget that it is a Dune move and just enjoy the scenery. Plus who didn't want to see Sting in a futuristic Speedo?
 
I fail to see how this thread direction helps the unemployed such as Gurney Halleck. At least Thufir got a new job.
 
I think there are certain cases where the Lynch movie succeeds, particularly in visual and tone.
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Maybe. But "i WILL kill HIM" from Speedo/Synchronicity-boy is something I still hear in my nightmares.

For example I loved the idea of the spacing guild navigators as these sluglike creatures mutated by the spice (and so did Herbert, reportedly)
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Which is weird, considering he totally refutes that image in Dune Messiah.

I need to try the SFC version again. I tried once and gave up in disgust halfway through. Sure, it followed the book more closely than Lynch's film, but the acting was horrendous, even from veterans like William Hurt.
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Pretty bad, yes. And I still wonder if either film is comprehensible to someone who hasn't read the book.
 
originally posted by Cory Cartwright:

Plus who didn't want to see Sting in a futuristic Speedo?
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I had absolutely no interest in seeing the movie until this instant.

For the record, my reactions from long ago were:

Dune - great
Dune Messiah - eh, okay
Children of Dune - lousy
GE of Dune - some good stuff, certainly better than CoD
everything after - worthless, though I admittedly gave up early
 
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