CWD: recent wines II (2024-02)

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Yule Kim:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Yule Kim:
I'm kind of hoping '14s are just shut down. I got some '14 H. Lignier Clos de la Roche that I assumed were in just a shut down phase. Will be a bummer if '14s are declining.

Can you name a single Burgundy vintage where the wines were through at ten years? Even twenty? None in my experience, and that goes back to 1978, at least (and also picks up 1977; I have little experience with 1977).

I was mainly reacting to the comments he and Nathan were making about how the 14s are turning out. Not exactly shot, but not necessarily evolving towards a nice place.

This is entirely normal for red Burgundy. The general rule is that opening between 3 and 15-20 years-old is chancy. Ten years on, notwithstanding Clive Coates's love for evaluating at that point, is not the time to do it.

 

[Ben Hunting]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

I'd normally answer that 2014 may not be in a good place right now, but I suspect your bottles came from a source here in Paris where I've inexplicably had lots of disappointing older bottles (even though every bottle I've bought there has been taken up from the cellar beneath the store), so there may be something else going on here.

For Paris, I assume you are referring to Les Caprices de l'Instant? I've been down to their cellar and the temperature was always fine (at least before the succession of recent managers, no idea if they've changed things). Is it somehow too much vibration from nearby metro lines? Now you're making me nervous because I do have a few gems that I've been saving from them (including an 05 Boillot Cherbaudes).

Nothing's changed under the new management. My concern was more on their source of the older bottles rather than the storage in Paris. I doubt that it's the métro, as too many other shops are near métro lines (not to mention lots of private cellars). That being said, my sampling of older bottles from Caprices de l'Instant is small enough that it could easily just be luck of the draw.

That’s interesting about Les Caprices de l’Instant. I bought some bottles of 2010 Barthod Véroilles from them in 2016 for an ok price and was told they came directly from the domaine.

 

[Ben Hunting]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
This is entirely normal for red Burgundy. The general rule is that opening between 3 and 15-20 years-old is chancy. Ten years on, notwithstanding Clive Coates's love for evaluating at that point, is not the time to do it.

A 2012 Lafarge Volnay wasn’t much to speak about earlier this week. Maybe I fell foul of the 3 to 15-20 years rule.

 

[Yule Kim]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Yule Kim:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Yule Kim:
I'm kind of hoping '14s are just shut down. I got some '14 H. Lignier Clos de la Roche that I assumed were in just a shut down phase. Will be a bummer if '14s are declining.

Can you name a single Burgundy vintage where the wines were through at ten years? Even twenty? None in my experience, and that goes back to 1978, at least (and also picks up 1977; I have little experience with 1977).

I was mainly reacting to the comments he and Nathan were making about how the 14s are turning out. Not exactly shot, but not necessarily evolving towards a nice place.

This is entirely normal for red Burgundy. The general rule is that opening between 3 and 15-20 years-old is chancy. Ten years on, notwithstanding Clive Coates's love for evaluating at that point, is not the time to do it.

I'm opening up Gouges '09 Vaucrains and '10 Pruliers next weekend, so here's hoping they are in an ok place in their evolution, though I understand that is right at the beginning of that 15-20 year window. But, recent Cellartracker notes suggest they may be opening up. (of course, it's Gouges, so God only knows)

 

[Keith Levenberg]

2010s are drinking well now notwithstanding my general agreement with Claude on no-go zones. They are developing faster than anticipated IMO, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but they don't seem on track to have the longevity of 2005, 2015, or for that matter 2009, which is also pretty tasty now but younger-tasting than 2010.

I had the 2010 Gouges Pruliers with Maureen a few weeks ago and it showed very well. The old rule about Gouges definitely ceased to apply by those vintages, though the similar rule about Vaucrains might still apply.

 

[Yule Kim]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
2010s are drinking well now notwithstanding my general agreement with Claude on no-go zones. They are developing faster than anticipated IMO, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but they don't seem on track to have the longevity of 2005, 2015, or for that matter 2009, which is also pretty tasty now but younger-tasting than 2010.

I had the 2010 Gouges Pruliers with Maureen a few weeks ago and it showed very well. The old rule about Gouges definitely ceased to apply by those vintages, though the similar rule about Vaucrains might still apply.

Thanks Keith. Did you decant the Pruliers?

I was thinking of decanting both around 5 hours before dinner, but if you have any thoughts on that, it would be much appreciated.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

I won't touch the subject of 2009, in fear of blowing up an already stressed server.

Keith, there is no question some 2010s are showing spectacularly, but are you sure this is uniformly the case? I have run into a brick wall head first with some of my favorites recently, e.g. Follin-Arbelet, Camus-Bruchon, Mugneret-Gibourg, Hubert Lignier. Qualitatively, I've been really happy with the vintage at both ends of evolution but the way acidity plays its part structurally, and consequently in imposing a time frame, seems all over the place. There are also a bunch of wines that could use more time to integrate the oak, but that's more of a footnote as it involves personal preferences while the wines admittedly have superb balance. I am finding considerably more predictability in terms of evolution in 2005.

Re Gouges in particular, I wonder if you are observing a climate shift more than changing winemaking practices. Not sure Gregory had changed anything at that point for cuvees above Bourgogne and village Nuits, but I may be mistaken. (Haven't opened a 2010 from him since the summer of 2020; that was the village NSG and it was not ready while very nice).

 

[Keith Levenberg]

Well, nothing is ever uniformly the case except death and taxes.

re: Gouges, the changes there were fast, definite, and dramatic, clearly style-driven and not weather-driven. Here's the text of the "About" page on Ripley's web site:

"Big firm tannins were always associated with Nuits Saint Georges, and when he took over Gregory Gouges saw one his tasks as ‘taming the tannins’. Down the road, his colleague Erwan Faiveley, also recently installed, was doing the same thing. A new cuverie allowed Gregory to work more precisely, and over the years the wines have got ever finer, perfectly reflecting their terroirs."

I would personally place the before/after marker somewhere in between 2002 and 2006, which coincides with the new generation coming aboard. [edit: and then around 2010 the oak-toast level seemed noticeably ratcheted up.]

I am a big fan of the wines from both periods, but they are very very different.

Anyone interested in a Gouges LSG vertical?

 

[Keith Levenberg]

originally posted by Yule Kim:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
2010s are drinking well now notwithstanding my general agreement with Claude on no-go zones. They are developing faster than anticipated IMO, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but they don't seem on track to have the longevity of 2005, 2015, or for that matter 2009, which is also pretty tasty now but younger-tasting than 2010.

I had the 2010 Gouges Pruliers with Maureen a few weeks ago and it showed very well. The old rule about Gouges definitely ceased to apply by those vintages, though the similar rule about Vaucrains might still apply.

Thanks Keith. Did you decant the Pruliers?

I was thinking of decanting both around 5 hours before dinner, but if you have any thoughts on that, it would be much appreciated.

It needs the decant for sediment but I don't think the time in the carafe will matter much. It's pretty wide open right away.

 

[Yule Kim]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

originally posted by Yule Kim:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
2010s are drinking well now notwithstanding my general agreement with Claude on no-go zones. They are developing faster than anticipated IMO, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but they don't seem on track to have the longevity of 2005, 2015, or for that matter 2009, which is also pretty tasty now but younger-tasting than 2010.

I had the 2010 Gouges Pruliers with Maureen a few weeks ago and it showed very well. The old rule about Gouges definitely ceased to apply by those vintages, though the similar rule about Vaucrains might still apply.

Thanks Keith. Did you decant the Pruliers?

I was thinking of decanting both around 5 hours before dinner, but if you have any thoughts on that, it would be much appreciated.

It needs the decant for sediment but I don't think the time in the carafe will matter much. It's pretty wide open right away.

Nice! Thank you

 

[Corey Miller]

I just checked, and my bottles of the 1996 are labelled Croix Boissée.

 

[Jayson Cohen]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Well, nothing is ever uniformly the case except death and taxes.

re: Gouges, the changes there were fast, definite, and dramatic, clearly style-driven and not weather-driven. Here's the text of the "About" page on Ripley's web site:

"Big firm tannins were always associated with Nuits Saint Georges, and when he took over Gregory Gouges saw one his tasks as ‘taming the tannins’. Down the road, his colleague Erwan Faiveley, also recently installed, was doing the same thing. A new cuverie allowed Gregory to work more precisely, and over the years the wines have got ever finer, perfectly reflecting their terroirs."

I would personally place the before/after marker somewhere in between 2002 and 2006, which coincides with the new generation coming aboard. [edit: and then around 2010 the oak-toast level seemed noticeably ratcheted up.]

I am a big fan of the wines from both periods, but they are very very different.

Anyone interested in a Gouges LSG vertical?

Yes. But will have to bring the competition. Make it Gouges - Chevillon? Or does that defeat the purpose?

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
Yes. But will have to bring the competition. Make it Gouges - Chevillon? Or does that defeat the purpose?

that may be one of the best drinking parties ever, and one of the worst tastings

in fact, is there a moment in time when the same vintage of LSG from both gouges and chevillon can be opened? other than 93 perhaps...

 

[Keith Levenberg]

I've got a Gouges LSG vertical and a Chevillon LSG vertical ready to go, but better to do them both at different times.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Ben Hunting:

That’s interesting about Les Caprices de l’Instant. I bought some bottles of 2010 Barthod Véroilles from them in 2016 for an ok price and was told they came directly from the domaine.

It would not surprise me at all if they came direct from the domaine. Have you tried the wine, and if so, how was it?

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Well, nothing is ever uniformly the case except death and taxes.

re: Gouges, the changes there were fast, definite, and dramatic, clearly style-driven and not weather-driven. Here's the text of the "About" page on Ripley's web site:

"Big firm tannins were always associated with Nuits Saint Georges, and when he took over Gregory Gouges saw one his tasks as ‘taming the tannins’. Down the road, his colleague Erwan Faiveley, also recently installed, was doing the same thing. A new cuverie allowed Gregory to work more precisely, and over the years the wines have got ever finer, perfectly reflecting their terroirs."

I would personally place the before/after marker somewhere in between 2002 and 2006, which coincides with the new generation coming aboard. [edit: and then around 2010 the oak-toast level seemed noticeably ratcheted up.]

I am a big fan of the wines from both periods, but they are very very different.

I haven't gone back to check my notes from annual visits, but my recollection is that Gregory's first vintage solo was 2008. He subsequently instituted changes to make all the wines drinkable earlier EXCEPT for the Vaucrains and the Les Saint-Georges, but if I recall correctly, those changes came a few years down the road and were not in effect for 2009 and 2010.

 

[Keith Levenberg]

The new style definitely extends to the Vaucrains. LSG I've been priced out of, so can't comment on any post-2015.

 

[Jay Miller]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
Yes. But will have to bring the competition. Make it Gouges - Chevillon? Or does that defeat the purpose?

that may be one of the best drinking parties ever, and one of the worst tastings

in fact, is there a moment in time when the same vintage of LSG from both gouges and chevillon can be opened? other than 93 perhaps...

1997

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
The new style definitely extends to the Vaucrains. LSG I've been priced out of, so can't comment on any post-2015.

My palate agrees with you, but that's not what Gregory told me. Perhaps it was just too difficult to have two wines that were stylistically different?

 

[Jayson Cohen]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
The new style definitely extends to the Vaucrains. LSG I've been priced out of, so can't comment on any post-2015.

My palate agrees with you, but that's not what Gregory told me. Perhaps it was just too difficult to have two wines that were stylistically different?

Both 2016s at La Paulee in NYC in 2019 definitely showed the new style.