CWD: recent wines part B (2024-03)

I know what you mean. And you got to understand the system such as it is. The most desirable wines are allocated BTW. Theres no such thing as a relation to a store.

The list of available wines and allocations pr person is published a week in advance and if there are 20 wines available and an allocation of 1 btl pr person, you may be out of luck if your queue number is 21.

The Oslo outlet is special. Too many rich people paying other to queue up for them. Things in smaller cities are far better.
 
originally posted by Odd Rydland:
I know what you mean. And you got to understand the system such as it is. The most desirable wines are allocated BTW. Theres no such thing as a relation to a store.
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Yup. It's one of the very few things I miss about the US. Even when I was a restaurant buyer, I'd tell people who wanted to buy good wines retail not to buy online but to get to know their local wine merchant. (Yes, I still miss Cave Taureau in Durham).
 
originally posted by mark e:
Yup. It's one of the very few things I miss about the US. Even when I was a restaurant buyer, I'd tell people who wanted to buy good wines retail not to buy online but to get to know their local wine merchant. (Yes, I still miss Cave Taureau in Durham).
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Alas, the heyday of the wine shop as hangout may be behind us, as retail shifts more online, even for one's 'local' shops. Not sure about France, as I haven't knocked around the Paris shops in a while. But certainly the case in Nyc.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by mark e:
Yup. It's one of the very few things I miss about the US. Even when I was a restaurant buyer, I'd tell people who wanted to buy good wines retail not to buy online but to get to know their local wine merchant. (Yes, I still miss Cave Taureau in Durham).
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Alas, the heyday of the wine shop as hangout may be behind us, as retail shifts more online, even for one's 'local' shops. Not sure about France, as I haven't knocked around the Paris shops in a while. But certainly the case in Nyc.
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Wait, are you saying that you can't go down to, say, Chambers and poke around for something you might not have known about?

That said, I had a love/hate relationship with them for a long time. David L is a friend, but when it comes to important customers with deep pockets, there are at least 1000 people in front of me, if not more, so I didn't get a lot of what I wanted.

However, if there are certain producers you love I am guessing you can find them online or in other local stores, something I often cannot do where I am.
 
originally posted by mark e:

Wait, are you saying that you can't go down to, say, Chambers and poke around for something you might not have known about?
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The new CSW shop is smaller, with fewer bottles on the floor. Jamie, David and even Eben are also less likely to be around, at least in my experience, unless I've been unlucky at the times I pop in. I mainly shop CSW, Flatiron and a bit of Crush, and at all these places it feels like the floor staff are less and less likely to be the Wine Experts of yesteryear.

These days I do a lot of online ordering and then pick up in those shops, to not worry about delivery and have a bit of face time. But all shops seem to be increasingly pushing wines through non-stop email blasts for every shipment they receive. Although there are still the odd gems in the stores that aren't listed online, so brick and mortar not irrelevant!
 
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
originally posted by Odd Rydland:
Their (the monopolys) margins are strictly regulated.
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Does this mean that:

1) if the importer had a markup of 20% on cost, and the Vinmopol's "wholesale" markup was 25%, a wine costing 10 euros ex-cellars would be sold by Vinmopol for 15 euros? (ignoring transportation costs here).

2) if Vinmopol bought directly from the producer at 10 euros, they would be obligated to sell the wine to consumers/on-premise at a 25% merkup, i.e. 12.5 euros?

...
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...Case (2) does not exist as the law and Vinmonopolet's mandate do not allow for that. So you cannot really compare the extant commercial structure with a non-existent one? Right?
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My main curiosity in #2 was whether Vinmonopolet has a fixed, required % markup. So that in a hypothetical case (not the current structure) IF they did buy directly from producers, it would have the net effect of reducing their sales price. I.E. they could not legally "capture" the importer's margin and maintain current prices. Is that the case?
 
originally posted by Odd Rydland:
Here is how it works.

Vinmonopolet is a sales organization, they don’t import. Anything any approved importer wants to sell in Norway, will be sold. Anything else is a no-no in EU (which we have a special relation to). And anyway what we want to control is the sales (opening hours, age limits and distribution in general). The locations of shops are under some regulation...
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Thanks for the detailed explanation. If you substitute "broker" for "importer" and don't make them mandatory (but they are widely used), this is approximately the system in place in Pennsylvania in the U.S.
 
originally posted by Odd Rydland:
Yes. Bundling a sales monopoly with importing would be in breach of EU rules regarding competition and open markets.
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Hmmm; a monopoly is already a closed, non-competitive market. Blocking a stage of vertical integration doesn't dilute their pricing power; it just means it's applied to different entities.

Is Vinmonopolet exempt from EU competitive regulations because it is conducting business exclusively inside Sweden? Whereas if it purchased directly from suppliers in other countries, it would be subject to anti-monopoly regulation?
 
Norway. We are not a full EU member and EU accepted that we required control over distribution in return for open access for imports. Before the EØS deal we also strictly regulated imports though there were loopholes to private imports.

There are monopolies in Sweden and Finland which are full EU members. They probably work somewhat differently with easier access to direct private imports.
 
Odd and Mark did a great job answering your questions, Christian. Here’s a link to Vinmonopolet’s homepage (in English), which provides a detailed explanation of the structure.

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www.vinmonopolet.no

Regarding markup:

Prices are stated in NOK DDP (Delivery Duty Paid). This means that the individual wholesaler is liable for all of the risks and costs associated with transporting the products to the designated place at the individual shop’s warehouse, including customs clearance, excise duties, taxes, VAT and any other charges.

The mark-up applied by Vinmonopolet is a fixed rate of NOK 8.90 per litre, plus 22 percent of the purchase price excluding taxes and duties. The percentage mark-up gradually falls for products whose purchase price excluding taxes and duties is over NOK 80, and the total mark-up is never more than NOK 110 per unit.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
I mainly shop CSW, Flatiron and a bit of Crush, and at all these places it feels like the floor staff are less and less likely to be the Wine Experts of yesteryear.
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Same venues for me but I have good luck getting knowledgeable help. I tend to go at funny hours, though, when people aren't busy.

These days I do a lot of online ordering and then pick up in those shops, to not worry about delivery and have a bit of face time. But all shops seem to be increasingly pushing wines through non-stop email blasts for every shipment they receive. Although there are still the odd gems in the stores that aren't listed online, so brick and mortar not irrelevant!
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I'd characterize it differently: they blast for wines that have become The It Girl lately, or to arrange a large purchase from an importer, but lots of wine just hits the shelf on the qt.
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by Rahsaan:
I mainly shop CSW, Flatiron and a bit of Crush, and at all these places it feels like the floor staff are less and less likely to be the Wine Experts of yesteryear.
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Same venues for me but I have good luck getting knowledgeable help. I tend to go at funny hours, though, when people aren't busy.
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Oh I'm sure there's still plenty of knowledge. Maybe it's more that my knowledge has increased relative to floor staff in comparison to 20+ years ago. But the vibe does seem different in-store these days.

I'd characterize it differently: they blast for wines that have become The It Girl lately, or to arrange a large purchase from an importer, but lots of wine just hits the shelf on the qt.
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Didn't mean to imply that everything goes out via email. But CSW just sent an email earlier for a few bottles of Bize and Duroche. Doesn't seem to be It Wine, or large quantities. And that stuff happens more and more. I guess to the extent they can prompt people to buy quickly online (as opposed to waiting for them to come into the shop, or seek out their website) it's all the better for the shop. But I suspect this also leads to less foot traffic in the store, and different vibes in-store.
 
I don't see plenty of knowledge compared to the old days (1980s and 1990s).

1. Back then, at least in SF, the top stores would send their best staff over to France and Italy to taste (different from today's importer-organized tours).

2. Staff could afford to buy and thus taste the great stuff or the store would open a bottle for staff (and good customers) to taste. That doesn't happen any more with the very top stuff.

3. Consequently, staff didn't just parrot back what they'd read in newsletters because they didn't know anything more.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
I don't see plenty of knowledge compared to the old days (1980s and 1990s).

1. Back then, at least in SF, the top stores would send their best staff over to France and Italy to taste (different from today's importer-organized tours).

2. Staff could afford to buy and thus taste the great stuff or the store would open a bottle for staff (and good customers) to taste. That doesn't happen any more with the very top stuff.

3. Consequently, staff didn't just parrot back what they'd read in newsletters because they didn't know anything more.
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Re #2, that doesn't happen with the really pricey, acclaimed wines, but in my small sample of retailers I think the staff has been exposed to a broader array of wines than in the past, and are more ready to recommend them. I also encounter greater awareness that individual palate sensitivities and preferences vary a lot, and less presumption that quality exists on a linear scale for everyone or that people want to "graduate" to certain wines.
 
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
I don't see plenty of knowledge compared to the old days (1980s and 1990s).

1. Back then, at least in SF, the top stores would send their best staff over to France and Italy to taste (different from today's importer-organized tours).

2. Staff could afford to buy and thus taste the great stuff or the store would open a bottle for staff (and good customers) to taste. That doesn't happen any more with the very top stuff.

3. Consequently, staff didn't just parrot back what they'd read in newsletters because they didn't know anything more.
Click to expand...

Re #2, that doesn't happen with the really pricey, acclaimed wines, but in my small sample of retailers I think the staff has been exposed to a broader array of wines than in the past, and are more ready to recommend them.
Click to expand...

This may be due in part to a difference of where we shopped. Also, there are many, many areas available today that simply weren't on the shelves (except for maybe something really cheap or a big négociant) in the 1980s and 1990s, e.g., Languedoc, Jura, Sicily, Friuli, etc.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
I don't see plenty of knowledge compared to the old days (1980s and 1990s).

1. Back then, at least in SF, the top stores would send their best staff over to France and Italy to taste (different from today's importer-organized tours).

2. Staff could afford to buy and thus taste the great stuff or the store would open a bottle for staff (and good customers) to taste. That doesn't happen any more with the very top stuff.

3. Consequently, staff didn't just parrot back what they'd read in newsletters because they didn't know anything more.
Click to expand...

Re #2, that doesn't happen with the really pricey, acclaimed wines, but in my small sample of retailers I think the staff has been exposed to a broader array of wines than in the past, and are more ready to recommend them.
Click to expand...

This may be due in part to a difference of where we shopped. Also, there are many, many areas available today that simply weren't on the shelves (except for maybe something really cheap or a big négociant) in the 1980s and 1990s, e.g., Languedoc, Jura, Sicily, Friuli, etc.
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so true. I remember mid 90s when muscadet [sur lie] had to be explained as a wine from the loire river dalta.
 
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