Assorted Red Burg (Jadot and Pataille) TNs

[Yule Kim]

2008 Louis Jadot Nuits St. Georges 1er Cru Les Boudots: This didn’t leave a distinctive impression on me; a little thin and non-descript. I am assuming this is a negoce bottle since it doesn’t say Andre Gagey on the bottle. Solid enough.

2007 Louis Jadot Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru Clos St. Jacques: In a very nice place: translucent on the palate with dark red fruit, raciness, elegance, and a saline and slightly spicy finish. The tannins at this point feel largely resolved. Ready to drink for my palate.

2010 Louis Jadot Clos Vougeot: Rich and powerful. Luscious red fruit on the palate, but balanced with acidity. Not nearly as graceful or elegant as the CSJ, but a powerhouse that still finishes with a strong streak of salinity and a hint of spice.

2021 Louis Jadot Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru Clos St. Jacques: Elegant, somewhat delicate, but the tannins at this point are still quite drying (especially compared to the ‘07 I had with this). Good, but needs time.

2021 Louis Jadot Clos Vougeot: A younger version of the ‘10: powerful, fruit-driven, though it doesn’t have the concentration or density of the ‘10. Tannins are also quite drying and could use more time to resolve.

2021 Domaine Sylvain Pataille Marsannay Le Chapitre: Dark red cherries and floral notes on the nose. On the palate, dark red fruit, hints of stems, spices, pepperiness, and salt on the finish. Lean and limber, driving acid, a taut mineral spine, and delicacy on the palate. This is fabulous; incredible complexity.

2021 Domaine Sylvain Pataille Marsannay Les Longeroies: This is a little darker, though still floral on the nose with a plummy, dark fruit on the palate. There is still some interesting stemmy notes, spices, and pepper, with a saline finish, but it seems a little more monolithically fruit than the La Chapitre. Still good, but a little simple in comparison.

2021 Domaine Sylvain Pataille Marsannay Clos du Roy: Very complex nose of spice and floral notes. The palate is rather dark, but intense, with interesting green and mineral notes to provide freshness and complexity. Again, spices on the finish (I guess this is a Marsannay thing) with a strong hint of salt (I guess this is a Pataille thing -- I notice it in a lot of his wines). Delicious and intense (though I do prefer Chapitre personally).

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

Also a fan of Pataille, though occasionally volatile.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Yule Kim:
Again, spices on the finish (I guess this is a Marsannay thing)...

Looks like some nice wines and good comparisons. Not sure exactly what you mean by spices, but it could easily be the Pataille stem inclusion?

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Yule Kim:
Again, spices on the finish (I guess this is a Marsannay thing)...

Looks like some nice wines and good comparisons. Not sure exactly what you mean by spices, but it could easily be the Pataille stem inclusion?

Sounds about right. The reds often have a light semi-carbonic accent.

 

[Yule Kim]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Yule Kim:
Again, spices on the finish (I guess this is a Marsannay thing)...

Looks like some nice wines and good comparisons. Not sure exactly what you mean by spices, but it could easily be the Pataille stem inclusion?

Sounds about right. The reds often have a light semi-carbonic accent.

Probably the stems, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a terroir thing as well. There was a spiky pepperiness that I found across all of the Pataille reds (including the village Marsannay, which I neglected to take careful notes of). But, I also felt there were some warmer, baking spices notes as well. All subjective of course.

I actually was surprised how much more red-fruited the Chapitre was to the Longeroies and the Clos du Roy. A noticeably different wine. I'm guessing this is from the same terroir as the Bizot? (though at the time I had the Pataille, I didn't know anything about Chapitre -- I think 2021 may have been the first vintage Chapitre was classified a Marsannay; I do know before the reclassification, it was a Bourgogne).

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Yule Kim:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Yule Kim:
Again, spices on the finish (I guess this is a Marsannay thing)...

Looks like some nice wines and good comparisons. Not sure exactly what you mean by spices, but it could easily be the Pataille stem inclusion?

Sounds about right. The reds often have a light semi-carbonic accent.

Probably the stems, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a terroir thing as well. There was a spiky pepperiness that I found across all of the Pataille reds (including the village Marsannay, which I neglected to take careful notes of). But, I also felt there were some warmer, baking spices notes as well. All subjective of course.

I actually was surprised how much more red-fruited the Chapitre was to the Longeroies and the Clos du Roy. A noticeably different wine. I'm guessing this is from the same terroir as the Bizot? (though at the time I had the Pataille, I didn't know anything about Chapitre -- I think 2021 may have been the first vintage Chapitre was classified a Marsannay; I do know before the reclassification, it was a Bourgogne).

Looks like the first Marsannay Chapitre was 2019, according to this Becky Wasserman write-up: https://www.beckywasserman.com/domaines/sylvain-pataille/bourgogne-rouge-le-chapitre/

 

[Yule Kim]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Looks like the first Marsannay Chapitre was 2019, according to this Becky Wasserman write-up: https://www.beckywasserman.com/domaines/sylvain-pataille/bourgogne-rouge-le-chapitre/

Ah, thank you for looking that up. Good to know!

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Yule Kim:
2021 Domaine Sylvain Pataille Marsannay Le Chapitre: Dark red cherries and floral notes on the nose. On the palate, dark red fruit, hints of stems, spices, pepperiness, and salt on the finish. Lean and limber, driving acid, a taut mineral spine, and delicacy on the palate. This is fabulous; incredible complexity.

2021 Domaine Sylvain Pataille Marsannay Les Longeroies: This is a little darker, though still floral on the nose with a plummy, dark fruit on the palate. There is still some interesting stemmy notes, spices, and pepper, with a saline finish, but it seems a little more monolithically fruit than the La Chapitre. Still good, but a little simple in comparison.

2021 Domaine Sylvain Pataille Marsannay Clos du Roy: Very complex nose of spice and floral notes. The palate is rather dark, but intense, with interesting green and mineral notes to provide freshness and complexity. Again, spices on the finish (I guess this is a Marsannay thing) with a strong hint of salt (I guess this is a Pataille thing -- I notice it in a lot of his wines). Delicious and intense (though I do prefer Chapitre personally).

So based on my wholesale price, these would be around straight $100 retail and $80 discount retail (price didn't change from 2021 to 2022 though).

How does that work for value in your opinion? I haven't bought or drank any Pataille in a while.

 

[Yule Kim]

I think for $80 they represent pretty good value (at least compared to village Burgundies I've had at around that price point). That was about what I paid for the Le Chapitre (I didn't get the Longeroies or the Clos du Roy, though I might pick up the Clos du Roy).

I really enjoyed the Chapitre a lot. It was very graceful and distinctive to me.

At $100, I'm probably not a buyer, but I wouldn't necessarily say that represents poor value, if you have the budget for that.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Yule Kim:
Again, spices on the finish (I guess this is a Marsannay thing)...

Looks like some nice wines and good comparisons. Not sure exactly what you mean by spices, but it could easily be the Pataille stem inclusion?

I find that a spice note somewhere between clove and allspice is a widespread varietal trait, and rarely present in varieties other than Pinot Noir. In fact, I'm often disappointed when Pinot Noirs don't have it. It might be boosted by oak barrels or stem inclusion.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Yule Kim:
Again, spices on the finish (I guess this is a Marsannay thing)...

Looks like some nice wines and good comparisons. Not sure exactly what you mean by spices, but it could easily be the Pataille stem inclusion?

I find that a spice note somewhere between clove and allspice is a widespread varietal trait, and rarely present in varieties other than Pinot Noir. In fact, I'm often disappointed when Pinot Noirs don't have it. It might be boosted by oak barrels or stem inclusion.

Interesting, because if we're talking about the same spices, for me they are not variety-based, but a consequence of intracelular fermentation, be that the result of whole cluster or actual semi or full carbonic maceration.

 

[MLipton]

I’ve found that spice note in Pinot Noir that underwent whole cluster fermentation (ie with stem inclusion). That might also account for O. finding it in CM wines.

Mark Lipton

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by MLipton:
I’ve found that spice note in Pinot Noir that underwent whole cluster fermentation (ie with stem inclusion). That might also account for O. finding it in CM wines.

Mark Lipton

Precisely what I meant, since grapes with stems still attached undergo initial anaerobic/intracellular/enzymatic fermentation. So, the spiciness would be due to process rather than variety or soil, since I've found it in wines made from many other grapes (again, assuming we mean the same thing; I call them Asian spices, or ecclesiastical spices because they remind me of churches).

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by MLipton:
I’ve found that spice note in Pinot Noir that underwent whole cluster fermentation (ie with stem inclusion). That might also account for O. finding it in CM wines.

Mark Lipton

Precisely what I meant, since grapes with stems still attached undergo initial anaerobic/intracellular/enzymatic fermentation. So, the spiciness would be due to process rather than variety or soil, since I've found it in wines made from many other grapes (again, assuming we mean the same thing; I call them Asian spices, or ecclesiastical spices because they remind me of churches).

I believe I have encountered this spice element in Pinot Noirs that underwent fermentation without whole grapes and/or stem inclusion; but I'm not going to rummage through ancient files or TNs to be sure.

Oswaldo, I think we are talking about different spices. My "PN spice" is closest to cloves. There are other spices I find in wines that might correspond to your "Asian spices," that I might call garam masala or christmas pudding notes. I find those most typically in young Mourvedre, although they seem to pop up in quite a few varieties. Of course all these things overlap and may be entirely subjective.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by MLipton:
I’ve found that spice note in Pinot Noir that underwent whole cluster fermentation (ie with stem inclusion). That might also account for O. finding it in CM wines.

Mark Lipton

Precisely what I meant, since grapes with stems still attached undergo initial anaerobic/intracellular/enzymatic fermentation. So, the spiciness would be due to process rather than variety or soil, since I've found it in wines made from many other grapes (again, assuming we mean the same thing; I call them Asian spices, or ecclesiastical spices because they remind me of churches).

I believe I have encountered this spice element in Pinot Noirs that underwent fermentation without whole grapes and/or stem inclusion; but I'm not going to rummage through ancient files or TNs to be sure.

Oswaldo, I think we are talking about different spices. My "PN spice" is closest to cloves. There are other spices I find in wines that might correspond to your "Asian spices," that I might call garam masala or christmas pudding notes. I find those most typically in young Mourvedre, although they seem to pop up in quite a few varieties. Of course all these things overlap and may be entirely subjective.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by MLipton:
I’ve found that spice note in Pinot Noir that underwent whole cluster fermentation (ie with stem inclusion). That might also account for O. finding it in CM wines.

Mark Lipton

Precisely what I meant, since grapes with stems still attached undergo initial anaerobic/intracellular/enzymatic fermentation. So, the spiciness would be due to process rather than variety or soil, since I've found it in wines made from many other grapes (again, assuming we mean the same thing; I call them Asian spices, or ecclesiastical spices because they remind me of churches).

I believe I have encountered this spice element in Pinot Noirs that underwent fermentation without whole grapes and/or stem inclusion; but I'm not going to rummage through ancient files or TNs to be sure.

Oswaldo, I think we are talking about different spices. My "PN spice" is closest to cloves. There are other spices I find in wines that might correspond to your "Asian spices," that I might call garam masala or christmas pudding notes. I find those most typically in young Mourvedre, although they seem to pop up in quite a few varieties. Of course all these things overlap and may be entirely subjective.

Understood. I was thinking more like three-wise-men type incense, and perhaps even some patchouli and musk. Mourvèdre is definitely prone.

 

[Rahsaan]

I don't know, cloves sound pretty Asian to me.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Rahsaan:
I don't know, cloves sound pretty Asian to me.

I grew up with them in Brazil, there's even a well-known novel there called Gabriela Cloves & Cinnamon by Jorge Amado, so I didn't introject an Asian connotation. But the Portuguese were the first European traders in Asia and brought so much of what they found back to Portugal and its colonies that it must all have become mixed up in the multiculti soup.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Rahsaan:
I don't know, cloves sound pretty Asian to me.

I grew up with them in Brazil, there's even a well-known novel there called Gabriela Cloves & Cinnamon by Jorge Amado, so I didn't introject an Asian connotation. But the Portuguese were the first European traders in Asia and brought so much of what they found back to Portugal and its colonies that it must all have become mixed up in the multiculti soup.

Sure, it's all mixed. And I guess there is a long history of Europeans using all those 'Asian' spices. But growing them elsewhere is fairly recent, which is why the origins may seem less pronounced.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

I think oak barrel can also provide some of these 'Christmas spice' notes.