Kastanienbusch

[Rahsaan]

Have been focusing on Riesling over the past weeks, prepping for the Feier.

One of my little comparisons was these two bottles of Kastanienbusch.

First, 2017 Dr. Wehrheim Kastanienbusch Riesling GG was pretty similar to the last bottle from 11 months ago. Firm and muscular in the Kastanienbusch style, but with golden ripe fruit, some tangy juicy elements, and herbal mineral detail. A very nice wine that is delicious at dinner, although I think the more recent vintages here have a bit more spark and interest. (Which is of course a good thing...)

Then came my benchmark, the 2022 Rebholz Kastanienbusch Riesling GG. It's been too long since I've had Rebhlolz and from the immediate corkpull there was so much aroma in the kitchen and so much elegance on my tongue. A ripe firm structured Kastanienbusch, but still young enough to have enough juice to be easy to drink. The main feature that grabbed me was the elegance, clarity and delicate tone to the power. I’ve been drinking more Wehrheim Kastanienbusch recently, but those wines don’t approach this level of finesse.

Not a wine that screams to the masses, but I really dig it.

 

[Claude Kolm]

I agree with you that Wehrheim has been turning it up in recent vintages, and also that Rebholz's style is a puzzle to the masses.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
...and also that Rebholz's style is a puzzle to the masses.

Thankfully they have enough fans to keep going. Although the difference between DE/US pricing seems larger than for other producers, which may limit the accumulation of fans in the US.

This '22 was just juicy enough on opening that I wondered if I should have poured it for a non-wine-geek friend the other week. Because it really was gorgeous. But then got a bit more structured with air. Although always delicious and elegant, great drinking for me.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
...and also that Rebholz's style is a puzzle to the masses.

Thankfully they have enough fans to keep going. Although the difference between DE/US pricing seems larger than for other producers, which may limit the accumulation of fans in the US.

This '22 was just juicy enough on opening that I wondered if I should have poured it for a non-wine-geek friend the other week. Because it really was gorgeous. But then got a bit more structured with air. Although always delicious and elegant, great drinking for me.

The Rebholz is about $100/bottle where I am and German wines are often cheaper than the US, so I can see why someone might be hesitant.

 

[Rahsaan]

Here in Manhattan the Rebholz Kastanienbusch sells for $140 (plus tax). For that price, I'd rather buy other wines.

But 70 euros in DE (obviously including tax) seems fair to me. I bought this for $90 from our friend LF, which is worth it for me. Although now that I look at wine-searcher, seems like there are a few brick and mortars in the US with comparable pricing, so maybe it's not as out-of-whack across the board.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Rahsaan:
Here in Manhattan the Rebholz Kastanienbusch sells for $140 (plus tax). For that price, I'd rather buy other wines.

But 70 euros in DE (obviously including tax) seems fair to me. I bought this for $90 from our friend LF, which is worth it for me. Although now that I look at wine-searcher, seems like there are a few brick and mortars in the US with comparable pricing, so maybe it's not as out-of-whack across the board.

Those are probably folks grey marketing it. The German Wine Collection is the national importer and prices are high. Rebholz GGs the last time I was offered pre-sale (which didn't fill anyway) were $90+/btl wholesale.

The Sonnenschein Weissburgunder really does it for me but I won't claim to have a ton of expertise here.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by VLM:

Those are probably folks grey marketing it. The German Wine Collection is the national importer and prices are high.

Indeed. I sat next to Jenna from GWC and Hans Rebholz at the Feier, and had a nice little chat about prices!

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by VLM:

Those are probably folks grey marketing it. The German Wine Collection is the national importer and prices are high.

Indeed. I sat next to Jenna from GWC and Hans Rebholz at the Feier, and had a nice little chat about prices!

No kidding! What did they say? I'm sure they think they're worth it but I wonder how sales are. My local distributor, who covers at least NC and SC, doesn't ever carry anything but the basic dry Riesling and Weissburgunder.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by VLM:

No kidding! What did they say? I'm sure they think they're worth it but I wonder how sales are. My local distributor, who covers at least NC and SC, doesn't ever carry anything but the basic dry Riesling and Weissburgunder.

Well I never got a straight answer from Jenna about my core question, which is why the spread between DE and US prices is so much wider for Rebholz as opposed to other producers. E.G. Rebholz Kastanienbusch and Donnhoff Hermannshohle are both roughly 70 euros in DE, but the Rebholz Kastanienbusch through GWC is $150, while Donnhoff HH is roughly $80. But, I didn't want to turn things into an interrogation!

She did highlight how the importer adds value versus grey marketers (of course that's a general issue, not specific to Rebholz) and along those lines she mentioned that getting Rebholz GGs in top Michelin-starred restaurants was one of their priorities as an importer. Which may explain some of the profit-taking and also why they are scarcer at retail.

She also mentioned a push to get the German producers to raise prices in their home market and shrink the DE/US spread, but I'm not sure of all the logic pathways there.

 

[georg lauer]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by VLM:

No kidding! What did they say? I'm sure they think they're worth it but I wonder how sales are. My local distributor, who covers at least NC and SC, doesn't ever carry anything but the basic dry Riesling and Weissburgunder.

Well I never got a straight answer from Jenna about my core question, which is why the spread between DE and US prices is so much wider for Rebholz as opposed to other producers. E.G. Rebholz Kastanienbusch and Donnhoff Hermannshohle are both roughly 70 euros in DE, but the Rebholz Kastanienbusch through GWC is $150, while Donnhoff HH is roughly $80. But, I didn't want to turn things into an interrogation!

She did highlight how the importer adds value versus grey marketers (of course that's a general issue, not specific to Rebholz) and along those lines she mentioned that getting Rebholz GGs in top Michelin-starred restaurants was one of their priorities as an importer. Which may explain some of the profit-taking and also why they are scarcer at retail.

She also mentioned a push to get the German producers to raise prices in their home market and shrink the DE/US spread, but I'm not sure of all the logic pathways there.

Kastanienbusch is usually around $100 her in Boston and many other markets. And right now Gordon’s is selling out cases of Sonnenschein and Ganz Horn 2020 for $63 (plus lots of other GGs). I have my doubts that GGs are flying off the shelves in general at even these prices.
As to the importer margin: many German retailers sell Rebholz and others at ex winery prices. Raising their ex winery prices to allow sufficient margin for dealers was a main reason for the relatively aggressive annual increases at VDP wineries over the last 20 years. This has already significantly improved the retail situation compared to the old times when most German wineries had to charge business customers almost the same prices they charged their private customers. But at least in Germany most wineries have reached a price level where they need to be cautious with further increases, people are not readily buying at current prices from what I hear (apart from a handful estates who have excess demand) . The markups GWC seems to envision are rather detached from reality.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by georg lauer:
Kastanienbusch is usually around $100 her in Boston and many other markets. And right now Gordon’s is selling out cases of Sonnenschein and Ganz Horn 2020 for $63 (plus lots of other GGs). I have my doubts that GGs are flying off the shelves in general at even these prices.

Those are the grey market prices (although $63 sounds great, can't be 'normal'). Zachy's has Kastanienbusch for $90 and I bought mine from LF for roughly the same. But with that kind of margin between the grey market and the 'official' national importer, it makes me think the aggressive markup is with GWC.

originally posted by georg lauer:
But at least in Germany most wineries have reached a price level where they need to be cautious with further increases, people are not readily buying at current prices from what I hear (apart from a handful estates who have excess demand) . The markups GWC seems to envision are rather detached from reality.

That was my thought as well. Especially as there are fewer deep-pocketed Germans willing to spend big money on wine. GWC seemed to think shrinking the transatlantic spread would cause less friction among eagle-eyed consumers like me, and also put more money in the pockets of the producers. But I don't know all the market angles.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by georg lauer:

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by VLM:

No kidding! What did they say? I'm sure they think they're worth it but I wonder how sales are. My local distributor, who covers at least NC and SC, doesn't ever carry anything but the basic dry Riesling and Weissburgunder.

Well I never got a straight answer from Jenna about my core question, which is why the spread between DE and US prices is so much wider for Rebholz as opposed to other producers. E.G. Rebholz Kastanienbusch and Donnhoff Hermannshohle are both roughly 70 euros in DE, but the Rebholz Kastanienbusch through GWC is $150, while Donnhoff HH is roughly $80. But, I didn't want to turn things into an interrogation!

She did highlight how the importer adds value versus grey marketers (of course that's a general issue, not specific to Rebholz) and along those lines she mentioned that getting Rebholz GGs in top Michelin-starred restaurants was one of their priorities as an importer. Which may explain some of the profit-taking and also why they are scarcer at retail.

She also mentioned a push to get the German producers to raise prices in their home market and shrink the DE/US spread, but I'm not sure of all the logic pathways there.

Kastanienbusch is usually around $100 her in Boston and many other markets. And right now Gordon’s is selling out cases of Sonnenschein and Ganz Horn 2020 for $63 (plus lots of other GGs). I have my doubts that GGs are flying off the shelves in general at even these prices.

Could some of you say something about the differences between their sites? In the meantime I ordered a Rebholz dry muscat as it was considerably cheaper than the rieslings. Not the same thing, I know, but they can be delightful.

 

[Rahsaan]

Georg is probably better suited but for the GG sites, I've found Kastanienbusch gives a more muscular structured wine and Sonnenschein is a rounder wine, maybe a touch less complex. But of course it's all filtered through the style and chez Rebholz they're all elegant.

I've tasted differences in specific vintages between the regular Sonnenschein and the Ganz Horn sub-parcel, but not sure I could specify a general rule.

 

[georg lauer]

originally posted by mark e:

Could some of you say something about the differences between their sites? In the meantime I ordered a Rebholz dry muscat as it was considerably cheaper than the rieslings. Not the same thing, I know, but they can be delightful.

The dry Muskateller is actually one of my favorite wines, not just in their portfolio. The expression of the grape is incredibly defined and clear and it is devoid of any of the cloyingness Muskatellers can have even when nominally dry. I equally love their Pinot Blancs at all levels, if one is skeptical of this grape's potential the top bottlings might convince otherwise.

With regards to the different Riesling sites, the Kastanienbusch is on red soil and I find it not just more muscular but also a bit "warmer" for the lack of a better word (not as in hot or overripe but the mineral expression is very different).
The two Sonnenscheins are usually rather distinct, as Sonnenschein was significantly expanded in the seventies (I think) and subplots with different soils were included. Sonnenschein "Ganz Horn" is Sandstone and Sonnenschein is shell lime stone. They have recently acquired a fourth GG site for Riesling that sits on slate, which is extremely unusual in the Pfalz. Have not opened one of those yet.
For those interested in the impact of soil on Riesling, I definitely recommend to buy the corresponding quartet of basic bottlings from the same sites, called vom Rotliegenden, vom Buntsandstein, vom Muschelkalk, and vom Schiefer. They don't need as much age as the GGs (though a year or two after release is always better for Rebholz wines) and they usually show the different characters with great purity.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by georg lauer:

originally posted by mark e:

Could some of you say something about the differences between their sites? In the meantime I ordered a Rebholz dry muscat as it was considerably cheaper than the rieslings. Not the same thing, I know, but they can be delightful.

The dry Muskateller is actually one of my favorite wines, not just in their portfolio. The expression of the grape is incredibly defined and clear and it is devoid of any of the cloyingness Muskatellers can have even when nominally dry. I equally love their Pinot Blancs at all levels, if one is skeptical of this grape's potential the top bottlings might convince otherwise.

With regards to the different Riesling sites, the Kastanienbusch is on red soil and I find it not just more muscular but also a bit "warmer" for the lack of a better word (not as in hot or overripe but the mineral expression is very different).
The two Sonnenscheins are usually rather distinct, as Sonnenschein was significantly expanded in the seventies (I think) and subplots with different soils were included. Sonnenschein "Ganz Horn" is Sandstone and Sonnenschein is shell lime stone. They have recently acquired a fourth GG site for Riesling that sits on slate, which is extremely unusual in the Pfalz. Have not opened one of those yet.
For those interested in the impact of soil on Riesling, I definitely recommend to buy the corresponding quartet of basic bottlings from the same sites, called vom Rotliegenden, vom Buntsandstein, vom Muschelkalk, and vom Schiefer. They don't need as much age as the GGs (though a year or two after release is always better for Rebholz wines) and they usually show the different characters with great purity.

Thanks very much. I will order a couple of the "vom" series (they cost about ½ the price of GGs, and at $48 are about the price of a Wachau federspiel riesling, which is a different beast, for sure); another big advantage for me is that they are about 11% ABV in 2022 vs. 12,5% ABV for the GGs, which is perfect.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by georg lauer:

originally posted by mark e:

Could some of you say something about the differences between their sites? In the meantime I ordered a Rebholz dry muscat as it was considerably cheaper than the rieslings. Not the same thing, I know, but they can be delightful.

The dry Muskateller is actually one of my favorite wines, not just in their portfolio. The expression of the grape is incredibly defined and clear and it is devoid of any of the cloyingness Muskatellers can have even when nominally dry. I equally love their Pinot Blancs at all levels, if one is skeptical of this grape's potential the top bottlings might convince otherwise.

Well, the dry Muskateller (2021, 11% ABV) is stellar. Not cloying at all, superb balance of acidity, aromatics and mouthfeel.