Non-Alcohol Wines

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

I'm especially interested in some winemaker and chemistry prof feedback on this topic (though all others are welcome). What makes this article interesting (https://www.the-buyer.net/insight/h...transform-quality-of-low-and-no-alcohol-wines) is that two very experienced professional palates I know think that the Bolle NA wines are good, well above others in the category.

My own personal experiences with NA wines do not include Bolle, but are as follows:
>>Good - Leitz Ein-Zwei-Drei Riesling. Fully delivers a mid-Rhine Riesling nose, pretty good on the palate, although a short slightly watery finish. Tasted a couple of times, including alongside a very good Mosel Kabinett, which was superior but the Leitz was not at all obviously NA or significantly inferior in quality.

>>OK - the Geisen and another NZ Sauvignon Blanc (don't recall whose), and NOOH La Coste Provence Rosé. These had true varietal/regional character in the aroma and foretaste, but somewhat bland and thin in the middle/finish.

>>Eh - a range of NA wines and "wine analogs". Some of them are just weak, crappy wines, some of them are wine-like but not very tasty, some are quite tasty but not at all wine-like.

As you can see in the article, the Bolle wines claim a superior technique, described as "We start with a normal alcohol wine, and then we put it through a delicate de-alcoholisation process. This process still damages the wine, so we then put the wine back into the fermentation tank, with more fresh grape juice and yeast and we run a secondary fermentation" and "...one essential aspect involves the use of a proprietary yeast that minimally creates alcohol during fermentation."

I presume the secondary fermentation involves only a small amount of grape juice, since they don't mention dealcoholization after that fermentation. But what do you make of the "proprietary yeast that minimally creates alcohol." Some winemakers and at least one chemistry instructor I know have scoffed at the notion of dramatically reducing the sugar-to-alcohol conversion rates in yeast. although admitting some tweaking is possible.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
Non-Alcohol Wines

As you can see in the article, the Bolle wines claim a superior technique, described as "We start with a normal alcohol wine, and then we put it through a delicate de-alcoholisation process. This process still damages the wine, so we then put the wine back into the fermentation tank, with more fresh grape juice and yeast and we run a secondary fermentation" and "...one essential aspect involves the use of a proprietary yeast that minimally creates alcohol during fermentation."

I presume the secondary fermentation involves only a small amount of grape juice, since they don't mention dealcoholization after that fermentation. But what do you make of the "proprietary yeast that minimally creates alcohol." Some winemakers and at least one chemistry instructor I know have scoffed at the notion of dramatically reducing the sugar-to-alcohol conversion rates in yeast. although admitting some tweaking is possible.

What is described is low-alcohol wine. The "delicate" is nonsense. Call it PR-speak, if you like. Could a yeast have a lower conversion ratio? Of course. In fact, I would think that might be the holy grail, given global warming. A lot of California wineries simply lower the ABV by a couple of percent using spinning cone (which has often replaced the original R/O process).

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

I can't answer your questions, but my wife has stopped drinking alcohol Mon-Thu, when she defaults to a 0% rosé by José Maria da Fonseca that she finds potable (unlike others she's tried). Just sent an email to Bolle Drinks asking if they ship to Portugal. If they do, I'll order a sampler case and check out how mo' betta they are.

 

[MLipton]

The yeast could conceivably convert the majority of sugar into CO2 rather than ethanol, but that would require some rather massive rejiggering of its enzymes. More likely is to add an ADH gene into the yeast such that it produces acetic acid rather than ethanol. It does rather sound like PR-speak.

FTR, we tried a bottle of the dealcoholized Giesen (SB and sparkler). Both were DNPIM, tasting primarily of screechy acid. FWIW, our 20-yo son liked the SB and mixed it with fruit juice. De gustibus

Mark Lipton

 

[Larry Stein]

A good friend's wife is pregnant. She's been drinking L'Antidote from Domaine des Grottes (Beaujolais producer). The base is unfermented Gamay juice. Not exactly N/A wine since it doesn't go through fermentation.

 

[Eden Mylunsch]

originally posted by MLipton:

FTR, we tried a bottle of the dealcoholized Giesen (SB and sparkler). Both were DNPIM, tasting primarily of screechy acid.

Mark Lipton

I too succumbed to the hype and tried the Giesen SB. I did put it in mouth and it was yucky. If it had any varietal character I couldn't imagine which variety it might be (an experience not unlike blind tasting the Mieomi PN last year).

French Bloom is a NA sparkling wine label recently subsumed by LVMH and it's quite good, but it ain't cheap. I don't know what their process is like, but it leaves more flavor than any of the other non-intoxicating bubbles I've sampled. There's also a winery called Oceano Zero that sources grapes from the Spanish Springs Vineyard here in San Luis Obispo, makes the wine and then de-alcoholizes it. It's pretty good, but like French Bloom, at $55 for the PN or $45 for the Chardonnay, it might not be something you'd drink every day. But it's better than 99% of the rest I've tasted, but I still prefer the flavor and aromas of the 'real' version of both wines.

-Eden (trying to keep it real)

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Eden Mylunsch:

originally posted by MLipton:

FTR, we tried a bottle of the dealcoholized Giesen (SB and sparkler). Both were DNPIM, tasting primarily of screechy acid.

Mark Lipton

I too succumbed to the hype and tried the Giesen SB. I did put it in mouth and it was yucky. If it had any varietal character I couldn't imagine which variety it might be (an experience not unlike blind tasting the Mieomi PN last year).

French Bloom is a NA sparkling wine label recently subsumed by LVMH and it's quite good, but it ain't cheap. I don't know what their process is like, but it leaves more flavor than any of the other non-intoxicating bubbles I've sampled. There's also a winery called Oceano Zero that sources grapes from the Spanish Springs Vineyard here in San Luis Obispo, makes the wine and then de-alcoholizes it. It's pretty good, but like French Bloom, at $55 for the PN or $45 for the Chardonnay, it might not be something you'd drink every day. But it's better than 99% of the rest I've tasted, but I still prefer the flavor and aromas of the 'real' version of both wines.

-Eden (trying to keep it real)

Those prices are nutty. The best I have found is Oddbird blanc de blancs, which costs $9 (25% VAT inclusive). NA wine and beer is quite cheap because there are no other taxes.

In general, I have found that local NA stout/porter is better than NA wine (no screechy acid problem) and better balanced.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

How about sparkling (soft) cider? Martinelli makes terrific stuff.

Not that different, right?

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
Non-Alcohol Wines

As you can see in the article, the Bolle wines claim a superior technique, described as "We start with a normal alcohol wine, and then we put it through a delicate de-alcoholisation process. This process still damages the wine, so we then put the wine back into the fermentation tank, with more fresh grape juice and yeast and we run a secondary fermentation" and "...one essential aspect involves the use of a proprietary yeast that minimally creates alcohol during fermentation."

I presume the secondary fermentation involves only a small amount of grape juice, since they don't mention dealcoholization after that fermentation. But what do you make of the "proprietary yeast that minimally creates alcohol." Some winemakers and at least one chemistry instructor I know have scoffed at the notion of dramatically reducing the sugar-to-alcohol conversion rates in yeast. although admitting some tweaking is possible.

What is described is low-alcohol wine. The "delicate" is nonsense. Call it PR-speak, if you like. Could a yeast have a lower conversion ratio? Of course. In fact, I would think that might be the holy grail, given global warming. A lot of California wineries simply lower the ABV by a couple of percent using spinning cone (which has often replaced the original R/O process).

In my case (probably many cases if one isn't purist about it), extremely low alcohol serves the purpose very well.

Yes, in fact one winery I worked at did a lot of trials in the late 90s knocking off 1-2% using spinning cone and RO. As with blending, the best results were as much art as science. In some, I found it quite successful.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by MLipton:
The yeast could conceivably convert the majority of sugar into CO2 rather than ethanol, but that would require some rather massive rejiggering of its enzymes. More likely is to add an ADH gene into the yeast such that it produces acetic acid rather than ethanol. It does rather sound like PR-speak.
Mark Lipton

Yikes! And then what? Run it through RO anyway to remove the acetic acid?

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by mark e:
In general, I have found that local NA stout/porter is better than NA wine (no screechy acid problem) and better balanced.

But food and mood-wise, it's at the other end of the flavor spectrum from most white and rosé wines. On the lighter side (but still not really a substitute) Sam Adams' "Just the Hazy" NA beer is very good.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
How about sparkling (soft) cider? Martinelli makes terrific stuff.

Not that different, right?

Yes, for no and low alcohol, cider is often a better substitute for white wines IMHO. Martinelli's is a bit sweet for me. Duché de Longueville in Normandy near Dieppe produces a good NA version.

Related note: I find that fresh crushed cider and Normandy-style keeved ciders are often better matches than wine with strong bloomy rind cheeses.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

originally posted by MLipton:
The yeast could conceivably convert the majority of sugar into CO2 rather than ethanol, but that would require some rather massive rejiggering of its enzymes. More likely is to add an ADH gene into the yeast such that it produces acetic acid rather than ethanol. It does rather sound like PR-speak.
Mark Lipton

Yikes! And then what? Run it through RO anyway to remove the acetic acid?

Well, that happens all the time, as well. Sometimes people get a bit behind on their topping program, fermentations stick, etc.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
Related note: I find that fresh crushed cider and Normandy-style keeved ciders are often better matches than wine with strong bloomy rind cheeses.

Agreed.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

originally posted by MLipton:
The yeast could conceivably convert the majority of sugar into CO2 rather than ethanol, but that would require some rather massive rejiggering of its enzymes. More likely is to add an ADH gene into the yeast such that it produces acetic acid rather than ethanol. It does rather sound like PR-speak.
Mark Lipton

Yikes! And then what? Run it through RO anyway to remove the acetic acid?

Well, that happens all the time, as well. Sometimes people get a bit behind on their topping program, fermentations stick, etc.

I think most wineries find a work-around like restarting fermentation, isolating a barrel, etc. for those instances, at least that's my experience (receding in the mists of time, I admit). RO-ing the wine would be pretty drastic.

 

[scottreiner]

I agree on the Duche de Longeville; I haven't tried it for years, but remember it being perfect for what it was.

I recently was given some Wolffer Spring in a Bottle BdB at the new Pink House in West Cornwall, CT. Delicious. Decidedly sweet, but balanced and fun.

(If you find yourself in NW CT, I highly recommend The Pink House. Gabe McMackin owner/exec chef, ex of The Finch in Clinton Hill)

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

MW Liz Thach just recommended the following no alcohol wines. Not just a puff piece, she has tasted a lot of such wines lately and was not satisfied with most of them.

Bolle Blanc de Blancs Sparkling.
Bolle Sparkling Rose
Leitz Eins Zwei Zero Sparkling Rose
Leitz Eins Zwei Zero Riesling
Leitz Sparkling Riesling
French Bloom ‘Le Blanc’ Organic Sparkling
Giesen Pinot Grigio
Loosen Dr. Lo Riesling

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by Larry Stein:
A good friend's wife is pregnant. She's been drinking L'Antidote from Domaine des Grottes (Beaujolais producer). The base is unfermented Gamay juice. Not exactly N/A wine since it doesn't go through fermentation.

Sounds worth trying. I have had several quite tasty unfermented juice products, marketed to replace wine. The problem has been (a) they don't taste like wine; (b) some are quite expensive compared to NA ciders, beers, and similar concoctions that are marketed as soft drinks rather than wine substitutes.

 

[MLipton]

Just bought and tried a bottle of the Bolle BdB to celebrate the PhD of a grad student who doesn’t drink. Not cheap, but a very decent wine. Acidity in balance, some fruit, good mouthfeel and a bit of yeast autolytic character.

Mark Lipton

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by MLipton:
Just bought and tried a bottle of the Bolle BdB to celebrate the PhD of a grad student who doesn’t drink. Not cheap, but a very decent wine. Acidity in balance, some fruit, good mouthfeel and a bit of yeast autolytic character.

Mark Lipton

Coincidentally, I just had this for the first time last Wednesday. Your description matches mine. A nice drink, competitive with mid-priced sparkling wines or cheap Champagne until the (non) finish; a bit pricey.