In which we drink village wines

[Keith Levenberg]

and some Chablis and a grand cru or two

2006 Raveneau Montmains
Wonderful scents of gunpowder, aloe cream, beeswax, and ocean breezes. Silky and pure and lots of dried lemon and lemon rind in the fruit. This is one of the better bottles of Raveneau I've had in a long time, standing out from a whole lot that taste pretty much the same.

2005 Truchot Gevrey-Chambertin
Pretty clean - not much Truchot funk here. Smells stony and a little austere. The tannin is still a wee bit edgy, but otherwise it has that Truchot light touch and feels tender and enveloping. Love the zingy cranberry-tinged fruit. This was just terrific.

2005 Fourrier Gevrey-Chambertin
There was a brief period when people used to draw comparisons between Fourrier and Truchot. No similarity here though. Some tire rubber occludes the aroma. There's a wisp of green that has me thinking of celery stalks. More lavish in texture than the Truchot, and enjoyable at first. But whatever was ruining the aromas got worse and not better and we spent a few minutes debating whether this tasted like canned vegetables or like the can itself.

2005 Mugneret-Gibourg Gevrey-Chambertin
This is the young-vine Ruchottes they bottled as Gevrey for a few years. It has a thicker, gummier texture than the others and the boldest, ripest, darkest fruit, with a wee bit of tree bark or something like that. Hardest to get a handle on though. I always struggle to find much more in this producer's wines than the rich, ripe fruit.

2005 Dujac Chambolle-Musigny
Previous owner obviously stored this above the stove.

2005 Clos des Lambrays
Cashmere texture. Love that fine knit. We didn't get as much time with this as the others and while it would have been nice to follow it longer, it was pretty clear right away that this was the class of the evening.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

There was a brief period when people used to draw comparisons between Fourrier and Truchot.

thanks! i've been surfing the webz in search of something amusing all day

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

2005 Mugneret-Gibourg Gevrey-Chambertin
...Hardest to get a handle on though. I always struggle to find much more in this producer's wines than the rich, ripe fruit.

I don't have enough experience to weigh in, but I'm guessing you get a lot of pushback on this view from the winegeek crowd.

 

[Yule Kim]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

2006 Raveneau Montmains
Wonderful scents of gunpowder, aloe cream, beeswax, and ocean breezes. Silky and pure and lots of dried lemon and lemon rind in the fruit. This is one of the better bottles of Raveneau I've had in a long time, standing out from a whole lot that taste pretty much the same.

Do you think something has changed at Raveneau? I remember having a 2000 Raveneau Montmains years ago that was very similar to what you just described for the '06.

But, I had a '19 Ravenau Chablis a couple of months ago that kind of just reminded me of run-of-the-mill Cote de Beaune white Burgundy with none of that Chablis salinity and oyster shell. I originally just thought it was because it was the village wine (and perhaps climate change), but your comment about the sameness of Raveneau makes me wonder if the winemaking has changed as well.

 

[Marc Hanes]

Yo, boss. Many years. May they have been kind. Appears so. The juiciest part of life is when you don't take it too seriously. I like when you/one drink "lesser" wines as it brings me back to what exploration felt like.

On some primal level, don't we all [extrapolated gently] wish to see the wine world with new eyes? Things like village wines can be a reminder. Alas, I ain't gots the coin to find out. As the boys from Rockford, IL said, ain't that a shame.

Life is good. As I sip on a 2002 Steiner Hund bought in October 2003. Gnaw the bone baby, gnaw the bone.

 

[Keith Levenberg]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

There was a brief period when people used to draw comparisons between Fourrier and Truchot.

thanks! i've been surfing the webz in search of something amusing all day

Forgive them, they knew not what they were doing.

 

[Keith Levenberg]

originally posted by Yule Kim:
just reminded me of run-of-the-mill Cote de Beaune white Burgundy with none of that Chablis salinity and oyster shell ... makes me wonder if the winemaking has changed as well.

That's usually my reaction to them too, but that goes many years back for me so it's not an issue of changed winemaking. I must just be blind to whatever the rest of the market sees. Glad I'm not alone though. There have been a few exceptions, but not enough.

WK just posted this on the other board, which was an interesting observation sitting right out there in the open waiting for someone to notice. (Scroll up for the photo.) https://www.wineberserkers.com/t/have-you-read-adventures-on-the-wine-route/332601/34 Could explain things.-

 

[Tom Blach]

I haven't always been thrilled by Raveneau either. Mugneret-Gibourg make very nice wines but I don't quite get the fetishisation, while Lambrays has always been a closed book to me though I haven't tried the new very expensive versions.
I do remember a bottle of that Fourrier with jugged hare at the now defunct Café Anglais back in 2008. It was gloriously perfect, and I'm glad I never had it again in the light of this report, it would only have spoiled the memory.

 

[Yule Kim]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

WK just posted this on the other board, which was an interesting observation sitting right out there in the open waiting for someone to notice. (Scroll up for the photo.) https://www.wineberserkers.com/t/have-you-read-adventures-on-the-wine-route/332601/34 Could explain things.-

Yikes, that photo does look like it was shot on the dark side of the moon.

Though, I'm guessing if Gentaz and Trollat had similarly stripped-down soils in their vineyards, I'm guessing it didn't affect the quality of the wines too much? (not like I've had any Gentaz or Trollat -- a bit before my time).

Speaking of village Mugneret-Gibourg, I had the '21 Vosne-Romanee a couple of weeks ago, and I thought it was straight-forward, silky, and approachable. Not the most complex wine, but very pleasurable and pretty. Certainly not worth what it currently costs, but I can see why people chase the producer.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Yule Kim:

Speaking of village Mugneret-Gibourg, I had the '21 Vosne-Romanee a couple of weeks ago, and I thought it was straight-forward, silky, and approachable. Not the most complex wine, but very pleasurable and pretty. Certainly not worth what it currently costs, but I can see why people chase the producer.

The international price in stores for M-G wines is ridiculous. Village Vosne-Romanée in restaurants in Paris (at least if you know where to go) is around 140e, maybe a little more for the most recent vintages, and that includes tax and tip.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by Yule Kim:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

2006 Raveneau Montmains
Wonderful scents of gunpowder, aloe cream, beeswax, and ocean breezes. Silky and pure and lots of dried lemon and lemon rind in the fruit. This is one of the better bottles of Raveneau I've had in a long time, standing out from a whole lot that taste pretty much the same.

Do you think something has changed at Raveneau? I remember having a 2000 Raveneau Montmains years ago that was very similar to what you just described for the '06.

But, I had a '19 Ravenau Chablis a couple of months ago that kind of just reminded me of run-of-the-mill Cote de Beaune white Burgundy with none of that Chablis salinity and oyster shell. I originally just thought it was because it was the village wine (and perhaps climate change), but your comment about the sameness of Raveneau makes me wonder if the winemaking has changed as well.

Curious. I have only had Raveneau a few times, and not in the past 4 years. However, each time the wine lived up to the hype, if maybe not to their current price premium. Very concentrated Chablis character, even in the village level wine.

On the other hand, I have tasted Dauvissat Chablis quite a few times, and often been left puzzled by the acclaim. Good wines, but not better than quite a few other producers IMHO, and sometimes lacking the style and complexity of my favorite Chablis.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

Curious. I have only had Raveneau a few times, and not in the past 4 years. However, each time the wine lived up to the hype, if maybe not to their current price premium. Very concentrated Chablis character, even in the village level wine.

I have Raveneau a few times a year going back to the 1980s (1982 was the first vintage I bought, although I have had back to 1975 in a restaurant). I find them excellent, and even unique wines, but they are all about Raveneau and not about Chablis (especially after François left the scene), and that is also the opinion of others I know who have had a lot of Raveneau.

On the other hand, I have tasted Dauvissat Chablis quite a few times, and often been left puzzled by the acclaim. Good wines, but not better than quite a few other producers IMHO, and sometimes lacking the style and complexity of my favorite Chablis.

I find Dauvissat to be exemplary Chablis (when not premoxed), showing the terroirs very well. However, there many others making Chablis at or near the same level of quality.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

originally posted by Yule Kim:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

2006 Raveneau Montmains
Wonderful scents of gunpowder, aloe cream, beeswax, and ocean breezes. Silky and pure and lots of dried lemon and lemon rind in the fruit. This is one of the better bottles of Raveneau I've had in a long time, standing out from a whole lot that taste pretty much the same.

Do you think something has changed at Raveneau? I remember having a 2000 Raveneau Montmains years ago that was very similar to what you just described for the '06.

But, I had a '19 Ravenau Chablis a couple of months ago that kind of just reminded me of run-of-the-mill Cote de Beaune white Burgundy with none of that Chablis salinity and oyster shell. I originally just thought it was because it was the village wine (and perhaps climate change), but your comment about the sameness of Raveneau makes me wonder if the winemaking has changed as well.

Curious. I have only had Raveneau a few times, and not in the past 4 years. However, each time the wine lived up to the hype, if maybe not to their current price premium. Very concentrated Chablis character, even in the village level wine.

On the other hand, I have tasted Dauvissat Chablis quite a few times, and often been left puzzled by the acclaim. Good wines, but not better than quite a few other producers IMHO, and sometimes lacking the style and complexity of my favorite Chablis.

Just to be clear, Christian, are you talking about R&V or J Dauvissat? I presume the former, who produced one of the most profound vinous experiences of my life, the 1985 Les Preuses that I had on two separate occasions. That being said, I've never had a Raveneau wine, so can't compare.

Mark Lipton

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by MLipton:

Just to be clear, Christian, are you talking about R&V or J Dauvissat? I presume the former, who produced one of the most profound vinous experiences of my life, the 1985 Les Preuses that I had on two separate occasions. That being said, I've never had a Raveneau wine, so can't compare.

Mark Lipton

Christian -
i must endorse the professor's position here, and not only to get a better semester grade from him
i am on board regarding several other superb producers, currently and historically, but r&v dauvissat wines do represent the height of my experiences with chablis, and possibly (despite the dangers of entering a forbidden 'apples vs oranges' zone) any white burgundy
for better or for worse their wines became my measuring stick, long ago, of how a chablis should champion its dirt, whereas (as Claude points out) raveneau has a powerful "house style"
premox is indeed a huge problem though
cheers

 

[Florida Jim]

FWIW,
I can no longer afford Raveneau nor R&V Dauvissat. In years past, I drank perhaps two cases of Raveneau and several more of Dauvissat. I always enjoyed both but never had a “Burgundy moment” with either.
I can afford and still buy several cases per year of Louis Michel.
It has what one might call a “house style” in that they produce no wine, at any level, that sees wood. Other than that, I can’t discern anything else that I would so identify.
I believe they are terroir driven; for example, in the 2019 vintage I have tasted the Chablis, Butteaux, Montmain, Forets, Vaudesir and Clos. Repeatedly. If asked to identify them blind, I think the only one I’d have difficulty with is the Butteaux/village wine comparison, and that only because I find the Butteaux bottling to be of lesser quality, year to year, than some other producers. Whether that is indicative of Michel’s part of the vineyard or something else I don’t know.
And I can afford this producer (although I find prices edging up) as they are significantly less expensive than Raveneau and Dauvissat.
But perhaps best of all, several of their wines have provided a Burgundy moment for me; most of those coming from Vaudesir but also one from Grenouilles.

I don’t taste as much as I used to so some of the newer producers escape me. Although, from what I see where I shop, even the new guys charge the going rate.

Your mileage may vary . . .

 

[Keith Levenberg]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
I find them excellent, and even unique wines, but they are all about Raveneau and not about Chablis (especially after François left the scene), and that is also the opinion of others I know who have had a lot of Raveneau.

Same here. My Raveneau notes are all weirdly similar to each other but not very similar to other Chablis. Again, with some notable exceptions.

I've had much higher highs and screaming Chablis character from Dauvissat, but also an inexcusable number of premox victims.

I'd rather drink Duplessis than either, but their premox record isn't clean, either.

Is Louis Michel using Diam these days? I'd want to get some if so. Right now the only Chablis I'm buying is Malandes, all under Diam.

 

[Larry Stein]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

I'd rather drink Duplessis than either, but their premox record isn't clean, either.

Which have you had that were premox'd? In the past few weeks, I opened '13 Montmains and '10 Fourchaume. Both were excellent, especially the '13. Given the vintage, I was shocked how good it was.

If Fevre prices weren't too high for my budget, I'd buy their wines. Everything I've tried in the DIAM period has been very good to excellent.

 

[Tristan Welles]

originally posted by Larry Stein:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

I'd rather drink Duplessis than either, but their premox record isn't clean, either.

Which have you had that were premox'd? In the past few weeks, I opened '13 Montmains and '10 Fourchaume. Both were excellent, especially the '13. Given the vintage, I was shocked how good it was.

If Fevre prices weren't too high for my budget, I'd buy their wines. Everything I've tried in the DIAM period has been very good to excellent.

I'm not Keith, but Duplessis vintages from 2002-14** or so frequently showed oxidation from les Clos and the Mountains. From 2016 much less so. Haven't tried to discover if I have been luckier or there was a change.

Two of the greatest bottles of wine I ever tasted were magnums of les Clos from each '97 and '99. The '99 left the two California brother winemakers and the nutty Russian agog at an impromptu dinner in Chicago.

**When distribution in the USA permitted.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by Tristan Welles:

I'm not Keith, but Duplessis vintages from 2002-14** or so frequently showed oxidation from les Clos and the Mountains. From 2016 much less so. Haven't tried to discover if I have been luckier or there was a change.

i am pretty sure some of my '17 vaugiraut is premoxed

 

[Tristan Welles]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:

I'm not Keith, but Duplessis vintages from 2002-14** or so frequently showed oxidation from les Clos and the Mountains. From 2016 much less so. Haven't tried to discover if I have been luckier or there was a change.

i am pretty sure some of my '17 vaugiraut is premoxed

regrettable. And how the heck did Montmains become Mountains?