Skurnik Tasting TNs - 6/24/25

[mark e]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Terry did have interest in most regions (but Baden, Franken, and Württemberg excepted), but even though he understood the terroirs in each region very well, he never made an effort to explain them to his customers, just putting the wines out there for people to taste with no explanation. And then there was his problem with dry wines (ironically, he posted on his blog a few years ago that most of what he drinks now is trocken).

Well, I can say from first-hand experience that this is simply not true. He did explain the regions to his customers, but those customers were his distributors and his wholesale customers, and they, in turn, were the ones who needed to translate that information to retail customers in understandable terms.

Regarding Terry's shift toward dry wines, I honestly believe that a lot of it has to do with the changing climate and the fact that many dry wines in the past were unbalanced.

I don't know what Terry said to distributors other than what was in his catalogs.

Quite a bit, actually. You should not assume that the catalogs were the whole story, given I did travel to Germany and Austria with Terry and Bill a number of times. As far as sales people complaining, well, many who came on the trips just tuned-out for whatever reason, so that is on them.

 

[Yule Kim]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Larry Stein:
The issue with Rheingau was when pretty much all of the old guard wineries began to make mediocre wine. Langwerth von Simmern, Schloss Vollrads, and Kloster Eberbach were the main offenders. I certainly stopped purchasing from that region. I don't know if that's still the case, but it's been going (or went on) for quite a while. Schloss Johannisberg to some degree, too(?) From what I've read, Johannisberg is back on form. The poster child for keeping the flame is Robert Weil. Wines have always been terrific. Prices for Weil is what stopped me from purchasing.

I agree that was one of the issues. Langwerth von Simmern, after a brie swan song, doesn't exist any more, ditto for Schloss Schönborn. Schloss Vollrads has been making better wine than it had, I think that they could still do better. Kloster Eberbach's problem is that it is so large, not all wines are of equal quality, but they built a new state-of-the art facility that opened about 15 years ago or so and that helped. I don't think Schloss Johannisberg had ever sunk to the level people claimed, but at any rate has been making superb wine for a long time. Schloss Reinhartshausen was sold some time ago, but I haven't seen the wines since before the sale. Schloss Eltz ceased to exist a long time ago.

But there are other estates making spectacular wines, e.g., the afore-mentioned Weil, Spreitzer, and Künstler, but also Breuer, Kühn, Prinz, Wegeler, Flick, etc., some of which, such as Künstler, Prinz, and Flick, have profited by gaining vineyards from the old historic estates that ceased to exist.

Have you had any wines from Eva Fricke? I'm curious, but the pricing on her wines makes me a little hesitant. I do know she controls some land that used to be owned by Schloss Eltz, but I don't know much else about her or her winemaking style.

I am tempted to drink a '20 Breuer Rottland I have to get a better read on the Rheingau, but have been hesitant to open it because I heard the wines need a lot of age. Claude, do you feel a Rottland with 5 years of age would be accessible or should I hold longer?

With respect to Kunstler, a wine shop near me has some, and I'll be sure to get some. It may be a good excuse to round up some folks to do a Rheingau event sometime soon.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Rahsaan:
Yes, as a social scientist, I would wonder if we really have a sense of whether curiosity has declined over time in the population?

If nothing else, it is much easier today (than 30 years ago) to find wine-buying advice. Everyone can read a blurb on Instagram, only so many people in a day can talk to David Lillie. People may simply be able to do something to focus their curiosity now, whereas before they might have had to simply buy something (or, heaven forbid, do some reading).

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Langwerth von Simmern, after a brie swan song, doesn't exist any more...

But there are other estates making spectacular wines, e.g., the afore-mentioned Weil, Spreitzer, and Künstler, but also Breuer, Kühn, Prinz, Wegeler, Flick, etc.

Another name that gets a lot of love in the US these days is JB Becker, although I never warmed to the style.

So has Wegeler always been in form or is that recent? I see their older wines around Berlin, but am often hesitant to buy.

And have you had Corvers-Kauter? They took over the von Simmern vineyards, but also have other wines, supposedly good.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

If nothing else, it is much easier today (than 30 years ago) to find wine-buying advice. Everyone can read a blurb on Instagram, only so many people in a day can talk to David Lillie. People may simply be able to do something to focus their curiosity now, whereas before they might have had to simply buy something (or, heaven forbid, do some reading).

Not sure about that. 30 years ago people were buying wine in person and could get advice from the retailer in store. It may not have been David Lillie levels of expertise, but (at least in places like Nyc) it was their neighborhood store and they could develop a relationship.

Not sure the average wine consumer really looks to IG, or knows what to make of that for their wine advice.

But then there are lots of segments we could dissect.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Terry did have interest in most regions (but Baden, Franken, and Württemberg excepted), but even though he understood the terroirs in each region very well, he never made an effort to explain them to his customers, just putting the wines out there for people to taste with no explanation. And then there was his problem with dry wines (ironically, he posted on his blog a few years ago that most of what he drinks now is trocken).

Well, I can say from first-hand experience that this is simply not true. He did explain the regions to his customers, but those customers were his distributors and his wholesale customers, and they, in turn, were the ones who needed to translate that information to retail customers in understandable terms.

Regarding Terry's shift toward dry wines, I honestly believe that a lot of it has to do with the changing climate and the fact that many dry wines in the past were unbalanced.

I don't know what Terry said to distributors other than what was in his catalogs.

Quite a bit, actually. You should not assume that the catalogs were the whole story, given I did travel to Germany and Austria with Terry and Bill a number of times. As far as sales people complaining, well, many who came on the trips just tuned-out for whatever reason, so that is on them.

No, the complaint of the sales person is that Terry did not support them in explaining the terroir to their sales -- e.g., the problems that I noted in the catalog and the fact that at the tastings the wines were just lined up with no explanation. The complaint is not that Terry doesn't know terroirs of the regions -- he knows them superbly -- it's that he did not make any effort to situate the wines within that context on the regional scale. So he took you and Bill on trips, but for most customers the main source of information was the catalogs and maybe the tastings, and as I indicated, they were lacking.

 

[Yule Kim]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Yule Kim:

originally posted by Marc Hanes:

originally posted by Yule Kim:
It seems like younger collectors are chasing racy, high-acid Mosel producers like Julian Haart or Spatburgunder from Baden (and a lot of that is being driven by a mix of what US importers are bringing in and social media hype). But, the continued lack of curiosity about other regions like Rheingau and Pfalz and even Rheinhessen outside of Keller continues.

From what I see working in collector wine storage, social media is likely a major factor. Particularly The Gram as a window into what should be acquired. Then there's the sexiness of the gray market, places like Thatcher's or SommPicks. If they are offering it, then why it has to be worth it. Everyone's favorite word, "curated." Echo chamber.

So curiosity born out of "Hmmm, I never heard of this guy, let's try it!" isn't that much in vogue. Not that the product is out there per se anyway.

I was told when I got started that the best thing to do is find a retailer you trust who can make recommendations to you (and not to chase wines that get high scores from critics).

About 25 years ago, that retailer would have been Bill Mayer, who had several private customers, although he had no actual brick-and-mortar location. However, alas, he is no longer with us, nor is that model of a highly personal and exceptionally knowledgeable tiny retailer.

Oh, it took me a second to connect the dots, but was Bill Mayer the person who used to run Age of Riesling?

The host of our Huet-a-thon brunch last year talked about him a lot. Apparently he did these hand-drawn catalogues? He sounded like a very interesting and knowledgeable guy. The host told us he still has a lot of the wine he bought from him.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Yule Kim:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Larry Stein:
The issue with Rheingau was when pretty much all of the old guard wineries began to make mediocre wine. Langwerth von Simmern, Schloss Vollrads, and Kloster Eberbach were the main offenders. I certainly stopped purchasing from that region. I don't know if that's still the case, but it's been going (or went on) for quite a while. Schloss Johannisberg to some degree, too(?) From what I've read, Johannisberg is back on form. The poster child for keeping the flame is Robert Weil. Wines have always been terrific. Prices for Weil is what stopped me from purchasing.

I agree that was one of the issues. Langwerth von Simmern, after a brie swan song, doesn't exist any more, ditto for Schloss Schönborn. Schloss Vollrads has been making better wine than it had, I think that they could still do better. Kloster Eberbach's problem is that it is so large, not all wines are of equal quality, but they built a new state-of-the art facility that opened about 15 years ago or so and that helped. I don't think Schloss Johannisberg had ever sunk to the level people claimed, but at any rate has been making superb wine for a long time. Schloss Reinhartshausen was sold some time ago, but I haven't seen the wines since before the sale. Schloss Eltz ceased to exist a long time ago.

But there are other estates making spectacular wines, e.g., the afore-mentioned Weil, Spreitzer, and Künstler, but also Breuer, Kühn, Prinz, Wegeler, Flick, etc., some of which, such as Künstler, Prinz, and Flick, have profited by gaining vineyards from the old historic estates that ceased to exist.

Have you had any wines from Eva Fricke? I'm curious, but the pricing on her wines makes me a little hesitant. I do know she controls some land that used to be owned by Schloss Eltz, but I don't know much else about her or her winemaking style.

I am tempted to drink a '20 Breuer Rottland I have to get a better read on the Rheingau, but have been hesitant to open it because I heard the wines need a lot of age. Claude, do you feel a Rottland with 5 years of age would be accessible or should I hold longer?

With respect to Kunstler, a wine shop near me has some, and I'll be sure to get some. It may be a good excuse to round up some folks to do a Rheingau event sometime soon.

I've only had a few wines from Eva Fricke, so I can't really comment. I will say that I thought the wines from Leitz were significantly better/more consistent when she was making them than they are now, but there could be other factors at play. Eltz also went to various sources, e.g., Weil got some.

I haven't had the Breuer you mentioned. They do sometimes take time, but a 2022 Pfaffenwies I had back in March was superb. As a tiptoe into Rheingau, it's going to be more about the producer, the vineyard, and the vintage than the Rheingau in general. Rather like trying a single bottle of Jamet or Romanée-Conti for Northern Rhône or Burgundy.

The Rheingau event may be a better introduction. I don't know what wines of Künstler the store has, but in theory, he's a good place to start because he has wines from Hochheim and Flörsheim to Rüdesheim with Hattenheim and Erbach in the middle. Don't feel that you have to only try GG; for earlier drinking and for better understanding what's going on the other wines are often more instructive. If they have the Stielweg in stock, be sure to get that, it's always a great wine. A Stielweg, Kirchenstück, Domdechenay, Hölle, Weiss Erd, (Flörsheim) Herrenberg tasting could be quite instructive because it would show all vineyards that are in that small portion of the Rheingau that is by the Main and not the Rhein.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Langwerth von Simmern, after a brie swan song, doesn't exist any more...

But there are other estates making spectacular wines, e.g., the afore-mentioned Weil, Spreitzer, and Künstler, but also Breuer, Kühn, Prinz, Wegeler, Flick, etc.

Another name that gets a lot of love in the US these days is JB Becker, although I never warmed to the style.

So has Wegeler always been in form or is that recent? I see their older wines around Berlin, but am often hesitant to buy.

And have you had Corvers-Kauter? They took over the von Simmern vineyards, but also have other wines, supposedly good.

I've liked the JB Becker wines I've had, (not to be confused the Brüder Dr. Becker in Rheinhessen which are truly special), but my experience is limited.

Wegeler has always been good, but the recent Rheingau vintages (they also have Mosel properties) seem to have gone up to a new and really superb level.

No experience so far with Corvers-Kauter.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Yule Kim:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Yule Kim:

originally posted by Marc Hanes:

originally posted by Yule Kim:
It seems like younger collectors are chasing racy, high-acid Mosel producers like Julian Haart or Spatburgunder from Baden (and a lot of that is being driven by a mix of what US importers are bringing in and social media hype). But, the continued lack of curiosity about other regions like Rheingau and Pfalz and even Rheinhessen outside of Keller continues.

From what I see working in collector wine storage, social media is likely a major factor. Particularly The Gram as a window into what should be acquired. Then there's the sexiness of the gray market, places like Thatcher's or SommPicks. If they are offering it, then why it has to be worth it. Everyone's favorite word, "curated." Echo chamber.

So curiosity born out of "Hmmm, I never heard of this guy, let's try it!" isn't that much in vogue. Not that the product is out there per se anyway.

I was told when I got started that the best thing to do is find a retailer you trust who can make recommendations to you (and not to chase wines that get high scores from critics).

About 25 years ago, that retailer would have been Bill Mayer, who had several private customers, although he had no actual brick-and-mortar location. However, alas, he is no longer with us, nor is that model of a highly personal and exceptionally knowledgeable tiny retailer.

Oh, it took me a second to connect the dots, but was Bill Mayer the person who used to run Age of Riesling?

The host of our Huet-a-thon brunch last year talked about him a lot. Apparently he did these hand-drawn catalogues? He sounded like a very interesting and knowledgeable guy. The host told us he still has a lot of the wine he bought from him.

Correct. Age of Riesling was the name. Extremely knowledgeable, and I was lucky enough to work with him for quite a few years, buying wine from Terry's portfolio. He had many interests outside of wine, including poetry, music, and photography. I consider(ed) him my mentor in all things German.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Terry did have interest in most regions (but Baden, Franken, and Württemberg excepted), but even though he understood the terroirs in each region very well, he never made an effort to explain them to his customers, just putting the wines out there for people to taste with no explanation. And then there was his problem with dry wines (ironically, he posted on his blog a few years ago that most of what he drinks now is trocken).

Well, I can say from first-hand experience that this is simply not true. He did explain the regions to his customers, but those customers were his distributors and his wholesale customers, and they, in turn, were the ones who needed to translate that information to retail customers in understandable terms.

Regarding Terry's shift toward dry wines, I honestly believe that a lot of it has to do with the changing climate and the fact that many dry wines in the past were unbalanced.

I don't know what Terry said to distributors other than what was in his catalogs.

Quite a bit, actually. You should not assume that the catalogs were the whole story, given I did travel to Germany and Austria with Terry and Bill a number of times. As far as sales people complaining, well, many who came on the trips just tuned-out for whatever reason, so that is on them.

No, the complaint of the sales person is that Terry did not support them in explaining the terroir to their sales -- e.g., the problems that I noted in the catalog and the fact that at the tastings the wines were just lined up with no explanation. The complaint is not that Terry doesn't know terroirs of the regions -- he knows them superbly -- it's that he did not make any effort to situate the wines within that context on the regional scale. So he took you and Bill on trips, but for most customers the main source of information was the catalogs and maybe the tastings, and as I indicated, they were lacking.

I agree with you about not situating his producers within a larger, regional context. I think that might have been helpful, though, maybe that is not within the scope or purpose of a trade tasting. However, if you spoke to the producers who were there, and there were many, they were happy to explain in detail their various terroirs.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Terry did have interest in most regions (but Baden, Franken, and Württemberg excepted), but even though he understood the terroirs in each region very well, he never made an effort to explain them to his customers, just putting the wines out there for people to taste with no explanation. And then there was his problem with dry wines (ironically, he posted on his blog a few years ago that most of what he drinks now is trocken).

Well, I can say from first-hand experience that this is simply not true. He did explain the regions to his customers, but those customers were his distributors and his wholesale customers, and they, in turn, were the ones who needed to translate that information to retail customers in understandable terms.

Regarding Terry's shift toward dry wines, I honestly believe that a lot of it has to do with the changing climate and the fact that many dry wines in the past were unbalanced.

I don't know what Terry said to distributors other than what was in his catalogs.

Quite a bit, actually. You should not assume that the catalogs were the whole story, given I did travel to Germany and Austria with Terry and Bill a number of times. As far as sales people complaining, well, many who came on the trips just tuned-out for whatever reason, so that is on them.

No, the complaint of the sales person is that Terry did not support them in explaining the terroir to their sales -- e.g., the problems that I noted in the catalog and the fact that at the tastings the wines were just lined up with no explanation. The complaint is not that Terry doesn't know terroirs of the regions -- he knows them superbly -- it's that he did not make any effort to situate the wines within that context on the regional scale. So he took you and Bill on trips, but for most customers the main source of information was the catalogs and maybe the tastings, and as I indicated, they were lacking.

I agree with you about not situating his producers within a larger, regional context. I think that might have been helpful, though, maybe that is not within the scope or purpose of a trade tasting. However, if you spoke to the producers who were there, and there were many, they were happy to explain in detail their various terroirs.

Yes, the producers were there, but if you spoke to the representatives from Darting, Eugen Müller, Müller-Catoir, and Theo Minges, for example, they would tell you about the differences of the terroirs of their wines but wouldn't situate them in terms of the Pfalz, in part, maybe, because that would involve bringing in other areas where Terry did not have representatives (e.g., south of Minges, north of Darting), but most likely because people wouldn't know or think to frame the questions that way. For example, I do not recall Terry having anyone with Deidesheim vineyards prior to his picking up von Winning, so there was no way for people to understand or know of what for me is the classic comparison of Forst and Deidesheim to Vosne and Chambolle. And without that, Eugen Mülller suffered and eventually was dropped by Skurnik, notwithstanding the very high quality wines and great prices for the quality of the vineyard and wines. I see that Skurnik has dropped Minges and that Darting is going out of business, meaning that only the Mittel-Pfalz will remain in the Skurnik portfolio (I realize Terry is no longer involved and at least the last time I talked to him, he was fighting hard for Minges). And that's why Terry's portfolio, as outstanding as it was, was overwhelmingly concentrated on a handful of name producers: Dönnhoff, Willi Schaefer, Selbach-Oster, and in Hans-Günther Schwarz's time Müller-Catoir -- people knew only certain names and not terroir.

 

[georg lauer]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

Re his attitude toward dry wines, it persisted long after dry wines began to be made in a more skillful manner, and one can see it also in his resistance to the wines from Franken, Baden, and Württemberg. The ferocity with which he condemned German dry wines in his catalogs was at times embarrassing, e.g., his positing why Germans had deformed palates. He lost some great producers, e.g., Wittmann, because he only wanted their wines with residual sugar.

Having lived through the whole evolution of dry wine in Germany with regular visits to most regions, this one really puzzled me when I moved to the US in 1999. And caused me to not take TT serious at all for many years as I could not imagine how somebody with his connections could miss all the exciting things going on and comment with so much ignorance. It also did not help that in a German TV documentary he was seen telling a Rheinhessen vintner that this and that barrel needed an additional X amount of Süssreserve for his customers. At a time when wine pimped with unfermented grape juice was seen as complete heresy back home.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

mark, i still have a couple of bill mayer treasures.
priceless.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by georg lauer:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

Re his attitude toward dry wines, it persisted long after dry wines began to be made in a more skillful manner, and one can see it also in his resistance to the wines from Franken, Baden, and Württemberg. The ferocity with which he condemned German dry wines in his catalogs was at times embarrassing, e.g., his positing why Germans had deformed palates. He lost some great producers, e.g., Wittmann, because he only wanted their wines with residual sugar.

It also did not help that in a German TV documentary he was seen telling a Rheinhessen vintner that this and that barrel needed an additional X amount of Süssreserve for his customers. At a time when wine pimped with unfermented grape juice was seen as complete heresy back home.

I'm probably going to get this a bit wrong, but I do remember some skeptical comments in Germany about the wines Terry liked (with more Süßreserve than many of his producers wanted to use - but, after all, it is a business - and they did sell a fair amount of wine), but there was also this weird matter of dry wines being a reaction to the pre-war wines; a sort of "denazification" of the wine styles, though I can't really say much more.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Terry did have interest in most regions (but Baden, Franken, and Württemberg excepted), but even though he understood the terroirs in each region very well, he never made an effort to explain them to his customers, just putting the wines out there for people to taste with no explanation. And then there was his problem with dry wines (ironically, he posted on his blog a few years ago that most of what he drinks now is trocken).

Well, I can say from first-hand experience that this is simply not true. He did explain the regions to his customers, but those customers were his distributors and his wholesale customers, and they, in turn, were the ones who needed to translate that information to retail customers in understandable terms.

Regarding Terry's shift toward dry wines, I honestly believe that a lot of it has to do with the changing climate and the fact that many dry wines in the past were unbalanced.

I don't know what Terry said to distributors other than what was in his catalogs.

Quite a bit, actually. You should not assume that the catalogs were the whole story, given I did travel to Germany and Austria with Terry and Bill a number of times. As far as sales people complaining, well, many who came on the trips just tuned-out for whatever reason, so that is on them.

No, the complaint of the sales person is that Terry did not support them in explaining the terroir to their sales -- e.g., the problems that I noted in the catalog and the fact that at the tastings the wines were just lined up with no explanation. The complaint is not that Terry doesn't know terroirs of the regions -- he knows them superbly -- it's that he did not make any effort to situate the wines within that context on the regional scale. So he took you and Bill on trips, but for most customers the main source of information was the catalogs and maybe the tastings, and as I indicated, they were lacking.

I agree with you about not situating his producers within a larger, regional context. I think that might have been helpful, though, maybe that is not within the scope or purpose of a trade tasting. However, if you spoke to the producers who were there, and there were many, they were happy to explain in detail their various terroirs.

Yes, the producers were there, but if you spoke to the representatives from Darting, Eugen Müller, Müller-Catoir, and Theo Minges, for example, they would tell you about the differences of the terroirs of their wines but wouldn't situate them in terms of the Pfalz, in part, maybe, because that would involve bringing in other areas where Terry did not have representatives . . .

I feel like now you are being willfully naive about the fact that trade tastings were designed to sell wines, not flesh out the gaps in knowledge regarding regional wine terroirs or contextualize those wines, though a wine writer might desire that.

 

[Larry Stein]

I recall going to a German Riesling trade tasting in SF (Claude, you might have been there?) in the early 2000s. Lineup was extensive, many wines. Eden Mylunsch was definitely there. Morning session was tasting dry wines, then catered lunch, sweeter (Kab and up) in the afternoon. Dry wines were painful to taste. Not nearly enough fruit to balance out the acid. Pretty much across the board. My take was why would anyone want to drink these?

I first met Bill Mayer when I worked at Pacific Wine Company at the original location on Washington St. I susequently subscribed to the Age of Riesling newsletter. My regret was not purchasing more Austrian Riesling and Gruner. Fortunately, I have a few friends in my main jeebus groups who are Austrian collectors. One fellow is Austrian (glousf on CT and IG, AndyK on the other bored). He's pulled several rabbits out of his hat. Yule is part of that group.

I've never had a JB Becker wine that's spun my wheels. I found them to be too rustic. Old Vine Imports brought in some older ones in the early 2000s, vintages from the late 80s through mid 90s. I tasted through those. Has the winemaking style changed?

Yule, I'd definitely be up for a Rheingau tasting!

 

[georg lauer]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by georg lauer:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

Re his attitude toward dry wines, it persisted long after dry wines began to be made in a more skillful manner, and one can see it also in his resistance to the wines from Franken, Baden, and Württemberg. The ferocity with which he condemned German dry wines in his catalogs was at times embarrassing, e.g., his positing why Germans had deformed palates. He lost some great producers, e.g., Wittmann, because he only wanted their wines with residual sugar.

It also did not help that in a German TV documentary he was seen telling a Rheinhessen vintner that this and that barrel needed an additional X amount of Süssreserve for his customers. At a time when wine pimped with unfermented grape juice was seen as complete heresy back home.

I'm probably going to get this a bit wrong, but I do remember some skeptical comments in Germany about the wines Terry liked (with more Süßreserve than many of his producers wanted to use - but, after all, it is a business - and they did sell a fair amount of wine), but there was also this weird matter of dry wines being a reaction to the pre-war wines; a sort of "denazification" of the wine styles, though I can't really say much more.

The move towards dry wine was a reaction to the POST-war wave of sweet plonk that had nothing but the names Spät- or Auslese in common with the great wines of the early 20th century (ok, they also shared the most prestigious site names since the new wine law from 1971 allowed their use far beyond the original boundaries of a vineyard). There was clearly a desire for sweet treats after the war and wine in most households was enjoyed after the meal and not with it. To satisfy demand, sweet wines were made cheaply and in huge quantities and even in regions outside of the classical areas for off dry Riesling, eg Württemberg, almost all wines, including the reds, had substantial sweetness. With the improvement of the restaurant scene/better meals at home in the eighties and nineties there was more interest in having dry German wines of quality that can accompany a meal and slowly more producers went in that direction, usually with commercial success even as the results were pretty uneven initially.
Regarding the pre-war wines, I need to dig in some of my books, but there are on and off discussions about the question of how much residual sugar the famous wines from around 1900 actually had. While there were always very sweet specialties like Beerenauslese, these were extremely rare and most of the wines that made the reputation were more in the Cabinet (that was the old spelling, as a wine worthy for the long term storage cabinet) or Spätlese category, which then were loosely defined but usually meant a wine with better ripeness but especially higher quality than the standard wines. To associate names like Kabinett and Spätlese/Auslese with specific ranges of must weight is a phenomenon invented in the law of 1971. It is actually quite possible that the famous pre-war wines were more like some of the the current Grosse Gewächse, but with long elevation in large casks and, while not bone-dry, with rather limited residual sugar. And to come back to TT and Süssreserve: This was only feasible with sterile filtration, a decidedly post WWII invention. Certainly no grand tradition in that process.

 

[Yule Kim]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
The Rheingau event may be a better introduction. I don't know what wines of Künstler the store has, but in theory, he's a good place to start because he has wines from Hochheim and Flörsheim to Rüdesheim with Hattenheim and Erbach in the middle. Don't feel that you have to only try GG; for earlier drinking and for better understanding what's going on the other wines are often more instructive. If they have the Stielweg in stock, be sure to get that, it's always a great wine. A Stielweg, Kirchenstück, Domdechenay, Hölle, Weiss Erd, (Flörsheim) Herrenberg tasting could be quite instructive because it would show all vineyards that are in that small portion of the Rheingau that is by the Main and not the Rhein.

Thanks Claude. This is very helpful.

Larry, let's do this sometime this summer.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by georg lauer:

Regarding the pre-war wines, I need to dig in some of my books, but there are on and off discussions about the question of how much residual sugar the famous wines from around 1900 actually had.

Nice history georg. And yes, I thought the 'heyday' of the off-dry Mosel wines was after WW2, much like the heyday of the plonky sweet stuff.