Saluting Burgundy (menu)

[Karen Goetz]

Relying on my memory and not on my notes, 1993 Bouchard Corton was impressive from early on. The 1993s are dark because the skins were so thick that vintage, which is what saved the wines from the rain at harvest, to the surprise of producers such as Hubert de Montille and Jacques d'Angerville who told me in October 1993 that they were thinking of selling everything in 1993 off to negociants (and they wound up making spectacular wines).

Also without checking my notes, it's possible that there were some whole clusters in the 2017 Corton and none in the 1993; the whole clusters would lighten the color.

Claude, thanks for your recollections on character of wines, vignobles and terroirs... I'm curious if your memory/experience includes tasting 2001 T.Mugnier Musigny at any point.... thoughts for now?

 

[Keith Levenberg]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
I suspect the cinnamon that you got was the fancy oak treatment

Very likely so, but the wine earned every bit of that fancy oak treatment, and if pulling off a La Tache-like experience was as easy as a fancy oak barrel, everybody would do it!

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
funny, i've always associated cinnamon with stems rather than oak in red burgundy

that said, i am sure that oak treatment-induced cinnamon exists and that i have in fact tasted it - except in such cases i'd expect to be achieving escape velocity on a radial trajectory away from stemware [likely passed by keith in the process]

De Montille does use a lot of whole clusters, especially in the Christiane; I didn't think about it because I don't pick up cinnamon from whole cluster (or at least not reliably so), but certainly that may be.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Karen Goetz:

Relying on my memory and not on my notes, 1993 Bouchard Corton was impressive from early on. The 1993s are dark because the skins were so thick that vintage, which is what saved the wines from the rain at harvest, to the surprise of producers such as Hubert de Montille and Jacques d'Angerville who told me in October 1993 that they were thinking of selling everything in 1993 off to negociants (and they wound up making spectacular wines).

Also without checking my notes, it's possible that there were some whole clusters in the 2017 Corton and none in the 1993; the whole clusters would lighten the color.

Claude, thanks for your recollections on character of wines, vignobles and terroirs... I'm curious if your memory/experience includes tasting 2001 T.Mugnier Musigny at any point.... thoughts for now?

Thanks, Karen.

I presume you mean J.-F. Mugnier Musigny? If so, yes, I tasted it from barrel in 2002, and from bottle at the estate in 2003 and once or twice early on from bottle back in San Francisco. Alas, I did not get any to cellar, and I haven't tasted it since. I have no specific recollection of the wine, and my notes are 1/3 of the way around the globe from where I am currently.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
I suspect the cinnamon that you got was the fancy oak treatment

Very likely so, but the wine earned every bit of that fancy oak treatment, and if pulling off a La Tache-like experience was as easy as a fancy oak barrel, everybody would do it!

As I said, it's an enclave in La T“che and not really typical of Malconsorts (although in the first few years, it was not easy to tell the Christiane apart from the regular Malconsorts, at least when young, and I have a funny story about another well-known Burgundy writer who was asked by Étienne to guess blind which glass was the Christiane and which was the regular one).

 

[Keith Levenberg]

Yes, the story of the Christiane plot's special placement was well known and created a feeding frenzy for the wine even before the first vintage came out. For present purposes though, the important fact is that the hype wasn't unjustified! It really was on a different plane than the regular Malconsorts. That said, I did indicate in this thread a preference for the Dujac, looking back on both over the years. That first vintage of Montille we were saying to each other, "We are drinking La Tache." But that sensation wasn't as replicable year to year as I'd hoped.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

are you ladies and gents trying to tell me that "vosne spice" is anything other than 50% becoming the "new zero" in the village, for as long as those of us under the age of 75 can remember?

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
are you ladies and gents trying to tell me that "vosne spice" is anything other than 50% becoming the "new zero" in the village, for as long as those of us under the age of 75 can remember?

Vosne spice and other characteristics of given villages are constructs of negociants for marketing purposes. They appear in certain vineyards but not all, in particular in Vosne, "Vosne spice" is not a characteristic of Malconsorts (read, e.g., Jasper Morris's description of Malconsorts in his Inside Burgundy). The characteristics of individual climats of each village are much more varied than the simple village descriptions that beginners learn. Supple Volnay? Really, in Taillepieds or Clos des Ducs? Elegant and light Chambolle? For Fuées and Cras? Hard tannins and structure for Nuits? For Chaignots or Boudots? Etc., etc.

And then there are additional factors, e.g., a producer based in one village will subconsciously or not make wines from other villages in a style more similar to wines in his/her own village. So, for example, Grivot's Nuits-Pruliers originally was part of a unified plot with Gouges's Nuits-Pruliers, but the styles of the two are very different.

 

[Karen Goetz]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Karen Goetz:

Relying on my memory and not on my notes, 1993 Bouchard Corton was impressive from early on. The 1993s are dark because the skins were so thick that vintage, which is what saved the wines from the rain at harvest, to the surprise of producers such as Hubert de Montille and Jacques d'Angerville who told me in October 1993 that they were thinking of selling everything in 1993 off to negociants (and they wound up making spectacular wines).

Also without checking my notes, it's possible that there were some whole clusters in the 2017 Corton and none in the 1993; the whole clusters would lighten the color.

Claude, thanks for your recollections on character of wines, vignobles and terroirs... I'm curious if your memory/experience includes tasting 2001 T.Mugnier Musigny at any point.... thoughts for now?

Thanks, Karen.

I presume you mean J.-F. Mugnier Musigny? If so, yes, I tasted it from barrel in 2002, and from bottle at the estate in 2003 and once or twice early on from bottle back in San Francisco. Alas, I did not get any to cellar, and I haven't tasted it since. I have no specific recollection of the wine, and my notes are 1/3 of the way around the globe from where I am currently.

Yes, J.-F. Thanks, Claude!

 

[Tom Blach]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
are you ladies and gents trying to tell me that "vosne spice" is anything other than 50% becoming the "new zero" in the village, for as long as those of us under the age of 75 can remember?

Vosne spice and other characteristics of given villages are constructs of negociants for marketing purposes. They appear in certain vineyards but not all, in particular in Vosne, "Vosne spice" is not a characteristic of Malconsorts (read, e.g., Jasper Morris's description of Malconsorts in his Inside Burgundy). The characteristics of individual climats of each village are much more varied than the simple village descriptions that beginners learn. Supple Volnay? Really, in Taillepieds or Clos des Ducs? Elegant and light Chambolle? For Fuées and Cras? Hard tannins and structure for Nuits? For Chaignots or Boudots? Etc., etc.

And then there are additional factors, e.g., a producer based in one village will subconsciously or not make wines from other villages in a style more similar to wines in his/her own village. So, for example, Grivot's Nuits-Pruliers originally was part of a unified plot with Gouges's Nuits-Pruliers, but the styles of the two are very different.

Exactly that-the traditional perceptions of village characteristics are very outdated indeed. Not to mention that even the least interventionist producer's imprint will always be larger than that of the terroir(which is not to say that in the portfolios of the best producers terroir will be anything other than very hierarchically transparent). I have learned to my cost that buying wine from a great terroir in a great vintage from a mediocre producer will always lead to crushing disappointment however low the price paid.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Tom Blach:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
are you ladies and gents trying to tell me that "vosne spice" is anything other than 50% becoming the "new zero" in the village, for as long as those of us under the age of 75 can remember?

Vosne spice and other characteristics of given villages are constructs of negociants for marketing purposes. They appear in certain vineyards but not all, in particular in Vosne, "Vosne spice" is not a characteristic of Malconsorts (read, e.g., Jasper Morris's description of Malconsorts in his Inside Burgundy). The characteristics of individual climats of each village are much more varied than the simple village descriptions that beginners learn. Supple Volnay? Really, in Taillepieds or Clos des Ducs? Elegant and light Chambolle? For Fuées and Cras? Hard tannins and structure for Nuits? For Chaignots or Boudots? Etc., etc.

And then there are additional factors, e.g., a producer based in one village will subconsciously or not make wines from other villages in a style more similar to wines in his/her own village. So, for example, Grivot's Nuits-Pruliers originally was part of a unified plot with Gouges's Nuits-Pruliers, but the styles of the two are very different.

Exactly that-the traditional perceptions of village characteristics are very outdated indeed. Not to mention that even the least interventionist producer's imprint will always be larger than that of the terroir(which is not to say that in the portfolios of the best producers terroir will be anything other than very hierarchically transparent). I have learned to my cost that buying wine from a great terroir in a great vintage from a mediocre producer will always lead to crushing disappointment however low the price paid.

To quote my friend Dale Williams: “it’s ironic that in a region so focused on terroir nothing matters more than producer.”

Mark Lipton

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Tom Blach:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
are you ladies and gents trying to tell me that "vosne spice" is anything other than 50% becoming the "new zero" in the village, for as long as those of us under the age of 75 can remember?

Vosne spice and other characteristics of given villages are constructs of negociants for marketing purposes. They appear in certain vineyards but not all, in particular in Vosne, "Vosne spice" is not a characteristic of Malconsorts (read, e.g., Jasper Morris's description of Malconsorts in his Inside Burgundy). The characteristics of individual climats of each village are much more varied than the simple village descriptions that beginners learn. Supple Volnay? Really, in Taillepieds or Clos des Ducs? Elegant and light Chambolle? For Fuées and Cras? Hard tannins and structure for Nuits? For Chaignots or Boudots? Etc., etc.

And then there are additional factors, e.g., a producer based in one village will subconsciously or not make wines from other villages in a style more similar to wines in his/her own village. So, for example, Grivot's Nuits-Pruliers originally was part of a unified plot with Gouges's Nuits-Pruliers, but the styles of the two are very different.

Exactly that-the traditional perceptions of village characteristics are very outdated indeed. Not to mention that even the least interventionist producer's imprint will always be larger than that of the terroir(which is not to say that in the portfolios of the best producers terroir will be anything other than very hierarchically transparent). I have learned to my cost that buying wine from a great terroir in a great vintage from a mediocre producer will always lead to crushing disappointment however low the price paid.

To quote my friend Dale Williams: “it’s ironic that in a region so focused on terroir nothing matters more than producer.”

Mark Lipton

Yes, it's ironic, but with a good producer, you do taste the terroir, and so it's like different musicians interpreting the same piece of music.

However, it's not always that way. Sometimes it's one musician repeating the same tune regardless of the piece of music. Yesterday I was at an in-store tasting of four wines (Bourgogne-HCdN, Vougeot, Vosne-Beaux Monts, Clos St-Denis). They were all attractive to drink, but all had the profile of Clos St-Denis, which should not have been the case. But at 16 euros a bottle, it did make the Bourgogne-Hautes Côtes de Nuits a bargain.

 

[Florida Jim]

“Yesterday I was at an in-store tasting of four wines (Bourgogne-HCdN, Vougeot, Vosne-Beaux Monts, Clos St-Denis). They were all attractive to drink, but all had the profile of Clos St-Denis, which should not have been the case..”

I read this and think, what a waste. Certainly, I understand it and, like you, see the bargain.
But it reminds me of the banner that was hung on John Belushi’s grave -“He could have given us so much more, but nooooooo”

 

[Keith Levenberg]

I like terroir as much as the next guy but can't see myself complaining that a Bourgogne-Hautes Cotes tastes too much like a grand cru. Granted, the usual course of such things is that the resemblance doesn't last very long.

 

[Tom Blach]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Tom Blach:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
are you ladies and gents trying to tell me that "vosne spice" is anything other than 50% becoming the "new zero" in the village, for as long as those of us under the age of 75 can remember?

Vosne spice and other characteristics of given villages are constructs of negociants for marketing purposes. They appear in certain vineyards but not all, in particular in Vosne, "Vosne spice" is not a characteristic of Malconsorts (read, e.g., Jasper Morris's description of Malconsorts in his Inside Burgundy). The characteristics of individual climats of each village are much more varied than the simple village descriptions that beginners learn. Supple Volnay? Really, in Taillepieds or Clos des Ducs? Elegant and light Chambolle? For Fuées and Cras? Hard tannins and structure for Nuits? For Chaignots or Boudots? Etc., etc.

And then there are additional factors, e.g., a producer based in one village will subconsciously or not make wines from other villages in a style more similar to wines in his/her own village. So, for example, Grivot's Nuits-Pruliers originally was part of a unified plot with Gouges's Nuits-Pruliers, but the styles of the two are very different.

Exactly that-the traditional perceptions of village characteristics are very outdated indeed. Not to mention that even the least interventionist producer's imprint will always be larger than that of the terroir(which is not to say that in the portfolios of the best producers terroir will be anything other than very hierarchically transparent). I have learned to my cost that buying wine from a great terroir in a great vintage from a mediocre producer will always lead to crushing disappointment however low the price paid.

To quote my friend Dale Williams: “it’s ironic that in a region so focused on terroir nothing matters more than producer.”

Mark Lipton

Yes, it's ironic, but with a good producer, you do taste the terroir, and so it's like different musicians interpreting the same piece of music.

However, it's not always that way. Sometimes it's one musician repeating the same tune regardless of the piece of music. Yesterday I was at an in-store tasting of four wines (Bourgogne-HCdN, Vougeot, Vosne-Beaux Monts, Clos St-Denis). They were all attractive to drink, but all had the profile of Clos St-Denis, which should not have been the case. But at 16 euros a bottle, it did make the Bourgogne-Hautes Côtes de Nuits a bargain.

Bertagna? I can't think who else offers all those appellations.