Latour with Guinea Fowl?

[georg lauer]

The overly fussy food with 20 tweezered ingredients that some/too many of the starred restaurants serve these days is imho rarely a good match for great wine. So Olney anticipated that one correctly. And I also fully agree that very simple dishes made with amazing ingredients are usually perfect for the special bottles. The statement does not feel overly dated to me.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

I'm with Georg and Olney: simple and superb food allows the wine to show best.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by mark e:

Yes. Absolutely. In the couple of decades i lived in Italy i never heard anyone pay much attention to it. Arneis was something you would guzzle while looking at the menu, then a bottle of dolcetto, followed by Barolo or Barbaresco when the food arrived. Sometimes an older bottle from the cellar after dinner. Until the 90s it was hard to order wines from other regions.

I think Italy had its own wine culture unaffected by the aestheticism the British brought to it, but that has changed now, at least the places I've visited in recent years (mostly cities).

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Rahsaan:
As always, depends on the details and what we mean by 'simple'. If you think about it in terms of number of ingredients/flavors, much of the restaurant European food is 'simple', even the refined Michelin-starred dishes with subtle sauces for the meat.

Whereas a more 'complex' dish like something exuberantly-flavorful from India or Thailand would go with simpler wines.

I think the current scene in France is different. There still is the traditional food that you appear to be thinking of, but about 30 years ago the bistronomie movement began, incorporating ingredients and foreign influences that hadn't been present in French food before. That seems to be spreading to Italy, too. As for German food, well . . . sigh! And my stays in Madrid have been disappointing on the culinary side, although maybe I just haven't gone to the right places. Can't speak to Scandinavia.

These days and for about the last twenty years or so, Japanese chefs have had a huge influence, resuscitating what had become a very sad food scene in Paris and in France in general. And now there's a new generation of Korean chefs moving things along even further.

As for sauces, Gérard Potel, a great gastronome as well as a great wine producer, once told me that the need for sauces went out with refrigeration -- the purpose of the sauce was to hide off flavors in meat that had been around too long. Consequently, he continued, food and wines both freshened in their flavors.

One other thought. About 35 years ago, a sommelier writing in La Revue du vin de France proposed that truly great wines be drunk on their own after the meal, reverting to an earlier tradition.* Obviously, that went nowhere, but I think it's still an idea worth considering.

* To some extent, the tradition did continue to live on in Germany.

 

[Tom Blach]

Is that not because great German non-dry Rieslings are at their very best on their own? I wouldn't ever think that true of wines with more overt structure and alcoholic strength; drinking those without food is for me no fun at all and seems to be asking them to do something to which they are not suited though with the modern transparency and perfume of some very expensive wines this may be less clear.
I tend to think of the 20 tweezered ingredient school as ADHD cuisine, which is probably very inappropriate of me. I can't stand it. I don't think there's a huge amount of science in food and wine matching and it can be a bit silly even though I enjoy tradition for its own sake both on the plate and in the glass-is there really anything better than a Sole Meuniere with a great white burgundy?
On the other hand the traditional food of Burgundy is that which was eaten by people who lived there-grand wines were sent out of the region and too valuable to drink so the powerful flavours of a Coq au Vin, for example, are designed to go with the once rustic basic wines of the region much better than with the fabled Chambertin.
While I have plenty of respect for Japanese cooking its extraordinary penetration of French gastronomy is to me a disappointment even while I worry that my concern for cultural purity is in complete opposition to all my views on matters away from the dining table.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Tom Blach:
Is that not because great German non-dry Rieslings are at their very best on their own?

They actually work amazingly well with food, too, and especially foods that would surprise you. Dr. Manfred Prüm has long delighted in serving one of his Auslesen with wild boar.

On the other hand the traditional food of Burgundy is that which was eaten by people who lived there-grand wines were sent out of the region

What is your source for that? I've read a fair number of books from the first half of the 20th century by Anglophone authors who were amazed at the great wines that they could find in Dijon and Paris and that never made it to London. Rousseau didn't begin selling in the UK until a few years after the end of WWII, but the wines were available in Burgundy and in Paris before then -- one book comments on drinking one in 1915.

While I have plenty of respect for Japanese cooking its extraordinary penetration of French gastronomy is to me a disappointment even while I worry that my concern for cultural purity is in complete opposition to all my views on matters away from the dining table.

Much of it is not really Japanese in style, but rather the respect for purity applied to classic French cuisine. If you come to Paris, try Alliance (but above all, do not waste your money on that travesty Kei).

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Tom Blach:
Is that not because great German non-dry Rieslings are at their very best on their own?

They actually work amazingly well with food, too, and especially foods that would surprise you. Dr. Manfred Prüm has long delighted in serving one of his Auslesen with wild boar.

Yup. I discovered that the long-cooked lamb shank (which had a fair amount of dried fruit such as apricots and dates) at Aziza in SF was best enjoyed with an aged Pfalz Riesling Auslese halbtrocken. Guessing Prüm would approve.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

I think the current scene in France is different. There still is the traditional food that you appear to be thinking of, but about 30 years ago the bistronomie movement began, incorporating ingredients and foreign influences that hadn't been present in French food before. That seems to be spreading to Italy, too..

Yes, I'm aware of the global influences on flavor profiles in European restaurants. But from what I've seen, it's mainly about broadening the accent notes, and very different from the complex depth of flavor you see in India/Thailand/Malaysia etc, where you need to be more particular about your wine matches.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Tom Blach:
While I have plenty of respect for Japanese cooking its extraordinary penetration of French gastronomy is to me a disappointment even while I worry that my concern for cultural purity is in complete opposition to all my views on matters away from the dining table.

Well we can critique all sorts of 'trends' for taking on distorted lives of their own. But there is no 'cultural purity' in food - or anything else. Humans have always circulated around the world, mixing culture, ingredients, flavors and techniques.

Obviously it happens much more quickly these days, and we could lament the loss of regional cultures, if everything becomes one global standard. But, I do think one aspect of gastronomy that will remain local is the agricultural nature of ingredients. Air travel notwithstanding, most ingredients taste best in specific conditions, which is why it's still difficult to get the full mango experience outside of the tropics.

 

[fatboy]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

About 35 years ago, a sommelier writing in La Revue du vin de France proposed that truly great wines be drunk on their own after the meal, reverting to an earlier tradition.*

* To some extent, the tradition did continue to live on in Germany.

it also lives on in certain oxbridge colleges, where teh best clarets are still often kept back until after dinner.

fb. (just stear clear of the snuff.)

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Tom Blach:
While I have plenty of respect for Japanese cooking its extraordinary penetration of French gastronomy is to me a disappointment even while I worry that my concern for cultural purity is in complete opposition to all my views on matters away from the dining table.

Well we can critique all sorts of 'trends' for taking on distorted lives of their own. But there is no 'cultural purity' in food - or anything else. Humans have always circulated around the world, mixing culture, ingredients, flavors and techniques.

Obviously it happens much more quickly these days, and we could lament the loss of regional cultures, if everything becomes one global standard. But, I do think one aspect of gastronomy that will remain local is the agricultural nature of ingredients. Air travel notwithstanding, most ingredients taste best in specific conditions, which is why it's still difficult to get the full mango experience outside of the tropics.

While I agree with you that cultural cross-pollination has always occurred (tacos al pastor are a great example), I worry about the homogenization of culture, similar to the “international” style of wine that gained currency in the ‘90s. I have greatly enjoyed learning about the regional cuisines of Italy, India, China, Thailand and Mexico, and I think the world would be a sadder place should they all get melded into one. I think we’ve already seen this happen to a large extent with the homogenization of regional accents in the US. The TV had a lot to do with that. Another part of me thinks that perhaps conflicts and sectarian violence would be reduced by cultural homogeneity, so that’s some solace.

Mark Lipton

 

[MLipton]

On the topic of food and wine pairing, I certainly agree that the more ingredients one adds to the dish the more difficult the task becomes. It is a kind of many body problem, or at least a multifactorial one. Apropos of Claude’s suggestion: I recall SFJoe’s response to me when I asked him what to serve with a ‘47 Huet Moelleux. He replied, “sunsets, or nothing at all,” advice that we followed to great effect.

Mark Lipton

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by MLipton:
... I worry about the homogenization of culture... Another part of me thinks that perhaps conflicts and sectarian violence would be reduced by cultural homogeneity, so that’s some solace.

Yes, I do think it's unfortunate when we find the same stores/styles all over the world. Lots of challenges for how to manage culture (and tourism) in an era of instant internet information dispersion.

But it's probably not top of my list of things to worry about. Given the craziness of our times...

 

[Larry Stein]

I was in Japan for 2 weeks in the last half of October. On the last day, my friend, David Russell, and I had lunch with Steve Goldun. Steve and David worked together at Woodland Hills Wine Company. Steve now spends about half the year in Japan for his current wine business.

We talked about Japanese cuisine. He said the cuisine as a whole is still very traditional except for one area: ramen. There is definitely some experimentation done. I noticed that when I was looking for ramen places for breakfast or lunch.

 

[fatboy]

as with teh wine, we always bitch about the shortcomings of teh producers whilst forever ignoring the ever increasingly deplorable standards of teh "guests."

"if you build it, they will come and insta it"

or somesuch.

fb.

 

[Tom Blach]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Tom Blach:
Is that not because great German non-dry Rieslings are at their very best on their own?

They actually work amazingly well with food, too, and especially foods that would surprise you. Dr. Manfred Prüm has long delighted in serving one of his Auslesen with wild boar.

On the other hand the traditional food of Burgundy is that which was eaten by people who lived there-grand wines were sent out of the region

What is your source for that? I've read a fair number of books from the first half of the 20th century by Anglophone authors who were amazed at the great wines that they could find in Dijon and Paris and that never made it to London. Rousseau didn't begin selling in the UK until a few years after the end of WWII, but the wines were available in Burgundy and in Paris before then -- one book comments on drinking one in 1915.

While I have plenty of respect for Japanese cooking its extraordinary penetration of French gastronomy is to me a disappointment even while I worry that my concern for cultural purity is in complete opposition to all my views on matters away from the dining table.

Much of it is not really Japanese in style, but rather the respect for purity applied to classic French cuisine. If you come to Paris, try Alliance (but above all, do not waste your money on that travesty Kei).

I certainly wouldn't deny that German non-dry Riesling works superbly at the table but it doesn't need food to be comprehensible.
In the early part of the twentieth century the top wines were largely exported, whether to Paris and other French cities(which certainly counts as export in context) or to the rest of Europe-little made its way to the UK, slightly more to the US as I understand it.
You are obviously right about the effect of the Japonification of French food and there's nothing wrong with it,I simply find it disappointing, which is only a matter of preference.

 

[Tom Blach]

originally posted by fatboy:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

About 35 years ago, a sommelier writing in La Revue du vin de France proposed that truly great wines be drunk on their own after the meal, reverting to an earlier tradition.*

* To some extent, the tradition did continue to live on in Germany.

it also lives on in certain oxbridge colleges, where teh best clarets are still often kept back until after dinner.

fb. (just stear clear of the snuff.)

They have it with cake. It is a self-consciously ridiculous ritual.

 

[fatboy]

originally posted by Tom Blach:

They have it with cake. It is a self-consciously ridiculous ritual.

at least in the scr in which i regularly dine, you are correct in saying that teh better claret is put on teh table alongside cake. together with cheese, chocolate, port, sauternes... even snuff. teh idea is that one selects from amongst these things to lubricate teh continuation of teh blather from dinner.

but hey, i'm sure it differs according to teh particular joint you find yourself in; and i suspect that even in teh better ones, you could always discretely smuggle in a magimix and knock yourself out.

de gustibus non est disputandum and all that.

fb. (teh name of the ritual is self-consciously ridiculous, i give you that.)

 

[georg lauer]

originally posted by Tom Blach:
I certainly wouldn't deny that German non-dry Riesling works superbly at the table but it doesn't need food to be comprehensible.

I would.
I have heard many times how the Prüms serve old (and much less overtly sweet) Auslese with their stag roast. But just like any other off dry Riesling, I likely would have enough after one glass, even as I can imagine it going well with the pear and boysenberries they serve with it.
It puzzles me how food friendly these wines are seen by some, an idea mostly limited to the US. Even with Asian food they only work occasionally for me and I usually much prefer the dryer wines we also open, Riesling and things like Scheurebe or Muskateller. I find this especially the case for current Rieslings that are not aged, which are in the majority much sweeter than they used to be 40 years ago when most of today’s Kabinetts would have been labeled Spät- or Auslese (a recent swing back by certain wineries notwithstanding). There is often a claim in the anglophone world that Kabinett does not really taste sweet because of its bracing acidity, which to me is just bizarre. I remember a meal in one of the German three star restaurants (famous for its japanified modern French cuisine) where the Sommelière was famous for serving off dry Riesling throughout the meal. We stopped enjoying this already before the amuse geules were finished and soon after we begged for mercy.
Just to be clear, I totally see the appeal and quality of these wines. I used to buy them regularly. But they all sit untouched in my cellar as we never find a find a reason to drink them and I have started to give them away.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by georg lauer:

originally posted by Tom Blach:
I certainly wouldn't deny that German non-dry Riesling works superbly at the table but it doesn't need food to be comprehensible.

Even with Asian food they only work occasionally for me and I usually much prefer the drier wines we also open.

Asian food? I mean that could refer to hundreds of regional cuisines. So, if it works for you, great. But I find the phrase patently absurd. It really depends, but very frequently, dry wines are the worst.