Current State of "Terroir Debate"

M

Marc Hanes

Marc Hanes
I apologize in advance as the word "terroir" brings up too many search hits on Disorder. In the past I recall a active debate in the "wine world" on whether or not the vine/grape structure does or does not "take up" minerals, chalk and such which would then in turn translate into distinct flavors in a finished wine. Lots of talk on a microbial level too and any impact on aroma and flavor. From what I can recall there was no definitive answer and competing scientific research continued apace.

Is anyone hereabouts aware of recent entries into this debate? Is it now considered resolved? If so, in favor of which school of thought?

I found this article from July 2025 that was informative for the generalist but didn't really include any references to "hard science" as it were.

www.vinerra.com

Understanding Terroir: The Truth, the Myth, and the Marketing Machine

Explore how terroir influences flavor and quality in winemaking. Discover its real impact on your favorite wines!
www.vinerra.com www.vinerra.com

General web searches turn up very similar hits which don't truly delve deeply into the science.

I guess I am thinking of articles such as this but more recent than 2020. https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/earth-science/articles/10.3389/feart.2020.539377/full

Many thanks in advance for any input. I do find this a topic of interest.
 
The Prof and I had a polar disagreement many moons ago about whether the concept included man or not (he yay, me nay) and, more to your point, I recall Joe D saying (to me, and perhaps also here somewhere) that no pathway has yet been identified by which soil elements might influence the flavor of the grapes, even though there is widespread belief (see Pascaline and Alice) that they do.
 
I figure that until that dirt-to-glass pathway is established scientifically, we may as well fully embrace terroir as a spiritual concept rather than a biological one, which means I come down on the yay side of including man in the equation.
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
I figure that until that dirt-to-glass pathway is established scientifically...
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Does anybody really reduce terroir just to the 'dirt'? It seems pretty obvious from basic observation that geographic factors influence agricultural products, regardless of whether we can currently measure every specific pathway.

The human element is interesting, because of course humans interact with geography. But there should probably be some limits to how much we want to include human factors in 'terroir', otherwise it loses the point.
 
Is this terroir?: Local yeasts (etc.) become embedded or, at least, adhere to grape skins, which then end up in the vat.

Not through the roots and technically not dirt (though I suppose it might quality as schmutz) yet certainly local and with an obvious entree.

Is the weather terroir? More or less sun gives you more or less sugar in the berry, which ends up in the vat.

If you add that Man chose the location, perhaps because it is sunny....

Is it terroir that mycorrhizal relationships between root tips and local fungus may increase or decrease how soil compounds are broken down into basic elements that are absorbable? Perhaps no one now can say what it tastes like when the ratio of magnesium to silicon is 2% higher here than over there... unless 'terroir' is how you say it.

Two good previous threads:
http://winedisorder.com/comment/56/2437/ and
http://winedisorder.com/comment/56/3031/

The Claude Bourguignon interview mentioned in one of those threads is still available on the Wayback Machine: click
 
originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
following the ratification of the 21st amendment, interpretation of terroir was delegated to individual states
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States of mind? States of confusion? If you'd promise to tell me later, it could also be a state of suspension)

- Eden (I like my terroir all-encompassing: soil, weather, climate, history, who planted what, where, why, and when, the amount of chem trails trickling down from the airplane lanes above, the aura of light glimmering in the sky, left over following the most recent radiation test, whether the planting grid is two or three-dimensional (Cronopios e Famas), or if you use Miracle-Gro or Scott's "nuke 'em ded" plant fertizer)
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Is this terroir?: Local yeasts (etc.) become embedded or, at least, adhere to grape skins, which then end up in the vat.

Not through the roots and technically not dirt (though I suppose it might quality as schmutz) yet certainly local and with an obvious entree.

Is the weather terroir? More or less sun gives you more or less sugar in the berry, which ends up in the vat.

If you add that Man chose the location, perhaps because it is sunny....
Click to expand...

The weather is clearly terroir. The local yeast one is interesting. Because for me, if I try to make a distinction, terroir would be the elements that a winemaker could not take with them to another site. Local yeast can be taken to another site, although perhaps then the distinction is that it is no longer local!

(And I suppose one could also explode this with a massive construction project that moved the layers of soil....)
 
Just to be clear, my position that terroir includes human culture was a linguistic one. In French, it is pretty indisputable that that is part of the original meaning of the term and remains one aspect of its definition. I have no problem with conceptually limiting the concept for discussions of the aspect of winemaking one wants to reference to matters of soil. And there are many perfectly good English words (soil, terrain, microclimate) that do that. People reach for the word terroir for its je ne sais quoi component to romanticize the concept in a way that soil, terrain, etc. does not, and if they want to do that they should accept the part of the word that makes it so that vous ne savez quoi what you are pointing to precisely rather than denuding a perfectly good word of that which separates it from other concepts you want to be using.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
And there are many perfectly good English words (soil, terrain, microclimate) that do that.
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Why use 3, 4 or 5+ when you can use one: terroir (soil (incl. its microbiome) + terrain + elevation + latitude + mesoclimate)?
 
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
And there are many perfectly good English words (soil, terrain, microclimate) that do that.
Click to expand...

Why use 3, 4 or 5+ when you can use one: terroir (soil (incl. its microbiome) + terrain + elevation + latitude + mesoclimate)?
Click to expand...
Because really, terrain includes all the other terms you cite since it means all the physical components of a stretch of land. Of course, if you want to invent a new and unnecessary English word, go ahead. But I don't see the point of it.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
In French, it is pretty indisputable that that is part of the original meaning of the term and remains one aspect of its definition.
Click to expand...

Here we go again. Pretty indisputable to you. If that were true, they would not use a word derived from terre.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
In French, it is pretty indisputable that that is part of the original meaning of the term and remains one aspect of its definition.
Click to expand...

Here we go again. Pretty indisputable to you. If that were true, they would not use a word derived from terre.
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Indisputable because that’s what their dictionary says, as you know.
 
AI Overview
According to the Larousse French-English dictionary and Larousse French dictionary, terroir is a masculine noun referring to a region or countryside considered in terms of its agricultural suitability, particularly for producing specific characteristic products like wine. It can also describe a, rural, or local character.

Key Definitions from Larousse:
Agricultural Land: The set of lands cultivated by a village's inhabitants.
Regional Character: A specific area or region defined by its capacity to produce distinct goods (e.g., wine, cheese).
Rustic/Local Flavour: A, traditional, or rural characteristic (e.g., le goût de terroir, which means a "taste of the soil" or authentic local flavor).
Translation: Translated in English as "region" or "country".

In broader, traditional French contexts often referenced in conjunction with Larousse definitions, it encompasses the combination of soil, climate, and human factors that give a product a unique character.

So, the dictionary gives both meanings, no doubt because people are more or less evenly split between them.
 
You will note that every definition relating to an agricultural product refers to something like the essence of the region that makes it unique, not a delimited set of features that make it unique. The point isn“t that there aren“t non human elements of terroir, but that they aren“t the only ones. So you can expel them from any particular use of the term, but you can“t expel them from the meaning of the term. It“s not like a term that has special usages, in which that usage doesn“t include others. Gout de terroir, accent de terroir, etc. all use the word in the same way, though they may have specific features in mind. And, again, English has a perfectly good word, terrain, that means just and only what you want for a French word that doesn“t. It really is the opposite version of the old dubya line: the problem with French is that it has no word for entrepreneur.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
terroir would be the elements that a winemaker could not take with them to another site
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That's probably the best definition for it I've heard and unifies all kinds of different understandings.
 
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