Current State of "Terroir Debate"

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Marc Hanes:
Jeff, by "expected kind of wine you're about to consume" do you mean textures, acidity level, alcohol content, etc.? Or flavor and scent? For better or worse I am trying to hone in on just the latter. The idea that soil composition directly imparts a predictable flavor to the wine (more or less predictable).

The rest of what is "expected" is discussed in the first article I linked to as well as in the many responses up thread. That's all part of this contentious "terroir" thing. I get that yeasts play a role in scent and aroma, so does vine stress, climate, sun exposure, other non soil externalities.

From firsthand experience we have all developed our own sense of what to "expect" from a given wine (to greater or lesser extent). I know what to "expect" from Pepiere or Baudry or Huet (within reason). But that's adjacent to what I am attempting to hone in on.

I was just thinking of how some Provençal wines seems to have a lavender note, or wines from a vineyard next to a pine forest can have a pine or resinous note. But that may have nothing to do with the uptake you are asking about, since it's possible that a little bit of these elements deposit on the grape skins and end up in the mix somehow.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
It does cover microclimate. According to the OED, it covers all aspects of a tract of land. It covers every implication you need. It just lacks the aura of terroir, which comes from
its attachment to culture. I apologize for what my iPhone is doing to my apostrophes on this site.

It's in a roundabout way, but you're right:

AI Overview
"Yes, the term terrain effectively includes, shapes, and determines microclimates. While terrain specifically refers to the physical features of the land (elevation, slope, aspect, ground cover), these features are the primary drivers of localized atmospheric variations or microclimates that differ from the surrounding regional climate." This is not how I see the term used by, say, the military or all-terrain vehicle salesmen, but that's my bad for relying solely on experience.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

Actually, at least according to the OED, the extensive definition of terrain, including all the non-geological elements, comes from military usage. For obvious reasons, if you think about it, a military evaluation of a terrain for purposes of defense or attack would include micro-climate as it manifested itself in weather, and all elements of soil that affected mobility, etc. Although I doubt any military strategist thought about micro-biomes, once a definition's extension includes the generalization of all aspects of a tract of land, that entails everything being up for inclusion.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Marc Hanes:
Jeff, by "expected kind of wine you're about to consume" do you mean textures, acidity level, alcohol content, etc.? Or flavor and scent? For better or worse I am trying to hone in on just the latter. The idea that soil composition directly imparts a predictable flavor to the wine (more or less predictable).

The rest of what is "expected" is discussed in the first article I linked to as well as in the many responses up thread. That's all part of this contentious "terroir" thing. I get that yeasts play a role in scent and aroma, so does vine stress, climate, sun exposure, other non soil externalities.

From firsthand experience we have all developed our own sense of what to "expect" from a given wine (to greater or lesser extent). I know what to "expect" from Pepiere or Baudry or Huet (within reason). But that's adjacent to what I am attempting to hone in on.

I was just thinking of how some Provençal wines seems to have a lavender note, or wines from a vineyard next to a pine forest can have a pine or resinous note. But that may have nothing to do with the uptake you are asking about, since it's possible that a little bit of these elements deposit on the grape skins and end up in the mix somehow.

Of course, lavender occurs in wines that don't come from regions where the plant grows. Off the top of my head, I can think of Burgundies and Northern Rhônes that have shown it. Which only means that there is more than one possible explanation. People used to say that Heitz Martha's Vineyard had eucalyptus notes from the eucalyptus trees that bordered the vineyard. Who knows?

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Marc Hanes:
Jeff, by "expected kind of wine you're about to consume" do you mean textures, acidity level, alcohol content, etc.? Or flavor and scent? For better or worse I am trying to hone in on just the latter. The idea that soil composition directly imparts a predictable flavor to the wine (more or less predictable).

The rest of what is "expected" is discussed in the first article I linked to as well as in the many responses up thread. That's all part of this contentious "terroir" thing. I get that yeasts play a role in scent and aroma, so does vine stress, climate, sun exposure, other non soil externalities.

From firsthand experience we have all developed our own sense of what to "expect" from a given wine (to greater or lesser extent). I know what to "expect" from Pepiere or Baudry or Huet (within reason). But that's adjacent to what I am attempting to hone in on.

People used to say that Heitz Martha's Vineyard had eucalyptus notes from the eucalyptus trees that bordered the vineyard. Who knows?

It definitely had a very minty note every vintage, as did the wines of Sean Thackrey, who was also near a eucalyptus grove.

 

[Marc Hanes]

Jeff, Oswaldo, et. al.

I have certainly heard of -- and probably "agreed with" -- the proximity of things like lavender or eucalyptus adding to the character of a finished wine due to "things" getting on the grape skins and such. Seems plausible enough. But I am no scientist and it would be very nice if scientists studied this and provided results publicly.

"Jeff, by "expected kind of wine you're about to consume" do you mean textures, acidity level, alcohol content, etc.? Or flavor and scent? For better or worse I am trying to hone in on just the latter. The idea that soil composition directly imparts a predictable flavor to the wine (more or less predictable)."

Why adjacent? I suppose what is guiding my question is that vine uptake of certain constitutive elements from the soil comes prior to The Hand of Man. Said hand isn't digging up the root stock and changing out the soil. The hand can mess around with cover crops, irrigation, sundry else. Less so what is happening with the vine 20 feet underground. If a vine say goes down through a foot of limestone then five feet of clay then ten feet of granite (just making this up) what explains if the imbiber says "mmm, granite" but not "mmm, limestone"?

It seems that isolating this one part of a much larger, nuanced discussion has proven very difficult. Imagine the above where a genie switches around the limestone and granite. Would the imbiber then say "mmm, limestone" and not "mmm, granite"?

Of course, one must allow that subsequent to any uptake winemaking choices may accentuate or diminish the elements of the uptake. Perhaps hence this is part of the emphasis on "transparency" in winemaking and all that.

 

[MLipton]

Marc,
Where I get hung up in this whole discussion is the idea that minerals or nutrients taken up by the roots impart volatile components to the wine that we can smell/taste. What does granite or limestone taste like? What do they smell like, and does that smell emanate from the mineral or from microorganisms resident on the mineral surface? (SPOILER: it's the latter cf. petrichor)

This is why I find SFJoe's suggestion that the soil influences the mycorrhizal ecology resident around the roots and that it's their interaction with the roots that gives rise to the goût de terroir that experience has taught us is real so appealing. Certainly, yeast populations on grape skins and in the cellar will no doubt vary with location, too, but whether that can explain why one lieux-dit in a vineyard tastes reliably different than another I'm not sure.

Mark Lipton

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by MLipton:
Marc,
Where I get hung up in this whole discussion is the idea that minerals or nutrients taken up by the roots impart volatile components to the wine that we can smell/taste. What does granite or limestone taste like? What do they smell like, and does that smell emanate from the mineral or from microorganisms resident on the mineral surface? (SPOILER: it's the latter cf. petrichor)

This is why I find SFJoe's suggestion that the soil influences the mycorrhizal ecology resident around the roots and that it's their interaction with the roots that gives rise to the goût de terroir that experience has taught us is real so appealing. Certainly, yeast populations on grape skins and in the cellar will no doubt vary with location, too, but whether that can explain why one lieux-dit in a vineyard tastes reliably different than another I'm not sure.

Mark Lipton

But how does one explain tastes such as eucalyptus, lavender or garrigue? Are they just epiphenomena?

 

[robert ames]

the way this discussion keeps going around and around and bobbing back up, it has me thinking of the bunch a cave men trying to figure out how a cell phone works.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

But how does one explain tastes such as eucalyptus, lavender or garrigue? Are they just epiphenomena?

Don't eschew the obvious: if you're downstream of a eucalyptus grove and your stuff smells like eucalyptus, you do not need to invoke arcane acts of Chemistry or sensorial vagaries. (I recall recently a vineyard suing to prevent a pot farm from going in next door. And many years ago already, Porter Creek complained that Gallo had stirred up so much manganese in their terra-forming that one of their vineyards became useless.)

As Claude said, there can be more than one way for things to apparently happen to our senses.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by MLipton:
Marc,
Where I get hung up in this whole discussion is the idea that minerals or nutrients taken up by the roots impart volatile components to the wine that we can smell/taste. What does granite or limestone taste like? What do they smell like, and does that smell emanate from the mineral or from microorganisms resident on the mineral surface? (SPOILER: it's the latter cf. petrichor)

This is why I find SFJoe's suggestion that the soil influences the mycorrhizal ecology resident around the roots and that it's their interaction with the roots that gives rise to the goût de terroir that experience has taught us is real so appealing. Certainly, yeast populations on grape skins and in the cellar will no doubt vary with location, too, but whether that can explain why one lieux-dit in a vineyard tastes reliably different than another I'm not sure.

Mark Lipton

But how does one explain tastes such as eucalyptus, lavender or garrigue? Are they just epiphenomena?

That’s been answered above. If you can smell them that’s due to volatile oils. Those same oils can settle on grape skins and even transit through the skins into the pulp.

Mark Lipton

 

[Marc Hanes]

Mark, thank you. The statement "does that smell emanate from the mineral or from microorganisms resident on the mineral surface? (SPOILER: it's the latter cf. petrichor) This is why I find SFJoe's suggestion that the soil influences the mycorrhizal ecology resident around the roots and that it's their interaction with the roots that gives rise to the goût de terroir that experience has taught us is real so appealing."

I will have to explore petrichor and mycorrhizal ecology more closely. If I can find anything approachable to the layperson. This seems to provide the most plausible avenue of exploration. Of course, in tandem with the volatile oils ambiently in contact with grape skins, etc. Joe was correct in many matters (and he let you know it).

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by MLipton:
Marc,
Where I get hung up in this whole discussion is the idea that minerals or nutrients taken up by the roots impart volatile components to the wine that we can smell/taste. What does granite or limestone taste like? What do they smell like, and does that smell emanate from the mineral or from microorganisms resident on the mineral surface? (SPOILER: it's the latter cf. petrichor)

This is why I find SFJoe's suggestion that the soil influences the mycorrhizal ecology resident around the roots and that it's their interaction with the roots that gives rise to the goût de terroir that experience has taught us is real so appealing. Certainly, yeast populations on grape skins and in the cellar will no doubt vary with location, too, but whether that can explain why one lieux-dit in a vineyard tastes reliably different than another I'm not sure.

Mark Lipton

But how does one explain tastes such as eucalyptus, lavender or garrigue? Are they just epiphenomena?

That’s been answered above. If you can smell them that’s due to volatile oils. Those same oils can settle on grape skins and even transit through the skins into the pulp.

Mark Lipton

OK, this makes sense to me.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by MLipton:
Marc,
Where I get hung up in this whole discussion is the idea that minerals or nutrients taken up by the roots impart volatile components to the wine that we can smell/taste. What does granite or limestone taste like? What do they smell like, and does that smell emanate from the mineral or from microorganisms resident on the mineral surface? (SPOILER: it's the latter cf. petrichor)

This is why I find SFJoe's suggestion that the soil influences the mycorrhizal ecology resident around the roots and that it's their interaction with the roots that gives rise to the goût de terroir that experience has taught us is real so appealing. Certainly, yeast populations on grape skins and in the cellar will no doubt vary with location, too, but whether that can explain why one lieux-dit in a vineyard tastes reliably different than another I'm not sure.

Mark Lipton

But how does one explain tastes such as eucalyptus, lavender or garrigue? Are they just epiphenomena?

That’s been answered above. If you can smell them that’s due to volatile oils. Those same oils can settle on grape skins and even transit through the skins into the pulp.

Mark Lipton

Don't tell the spoofers.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by MLipton:
Marc,
Where I get hung up in this whole discussion is the idea that minerals or nutrients taken up by the roots impart volatile components to the wine that we can smell/taste. What does granite or limestone taste like? What do they smell like, and does that smell emanate from the mineral or from microorganisms resident on the mineral surface? (SPOILER: it's the latter cf. petrichor)

This is why I find SFJoe's suggestion that the soil influences the mycorrhizal ecology resident around the roots and that it's their interaction with the roots that gives rise to the goût de terroir that experience has taught us is real so appealing. Certainly, yeast populations on grape skins and in the cellar will no doubt vary with location, too, but whether that can explain why one lieux-dit in a vineyard tastes reliably different than another I'm not sure.

Mark Lipton

But how does one explain tastes such as eucalyptus, lavender or garrigue? Are they just epiphenomena?

That’s been answered above. If you can smell them that’s due to volatile oils. Those same oils can settle on grape skins and even transit through the skins into the pulp.

Mark Lipton

Don't tell the spoofers.

On my honor, O.

Mark Lipton

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by MLipton:
Marc,
Where I get hung up in this whole discussion is the idea that minerals or nutrients taken up by the roots impart volatile components to the wine that we can smell/taste. What does granite or limestone taste like? What do they smell like, and does that smell emanate from the mineral or from microorganisms resident on the mineral surface? (SPOILER: it's the latter cf. petrichor)

This is why I find SFJoe's suggestion that the soil influences the mycorrhizal ecology resident around the roots and that it's their interaction with the roots that gives rise to the goût de terroir that experience has taught us is real so appealing. Certainly, yeast populations on grape skins and in the cellar will no doubt vary with location, too, but whether that can explain why one lieux-dit in a vineyard tastes reliably different than another I'm not sure.

Mark Lipton

But how does one explain tastes such as eucalyptus, lavender or garrigue? Are they just epiphenomena?

That’s been answered above. If you can smell them that’s due to volatile oils. Those same oils can settle on grape skins and even transit through the skins into the pulp.

Mark Lipton

So where does the lavender that I've gotten in wines from places like Burgundy come from?

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by MLipton:
Marc,
Where I get hung up in this whole discussion is the idea that minerals or nutrients taken up by the roots impart volatile components to the wine that we can smell/taste. What does granite or limestone taste like? What do they smell like, and does that smell emanate from the mineral or from microorganisms resident on the mineral surface? (SPOILER: it's the latter cf. petrichor)

This is why I find SFJoe's suggestion that the soil influences the mycorrhizal ecology resident around the roots and that it's their interaction with the roots that gives rise to the goût de terroir that experience has taught us is real so appealing. Certainly, yeast populations on grape skins and in the cellar will no doubt vary with location, too, but whether that can explain why one lieux-dit in a vineyard tastes reliably different than another I'm not sure.

Mark Lipton

But how does one explain tastes such as eucalyptus, lavender or garrigue? Are they just epiphenomena?

That’s been answered above. If you can smell them that’s due to volatile oils. Those same oils can settle on grape skins and even transit through the skins into the pulp.

Mark Lipton

So where does the lavender that I've gotten in wines from places like Burgundy come from?

Perhaps the perfume of the femme fatale at the table next to you, Claude? Seriously, though, we get violets in Nebbiolo, bacon fat in N Rhone Syrah. I'm not saying that volatile oils are the only way that aromas are imparted to wine grapes, simply that it's a likely source when you have a lavender field or eucalyptus tree proximate to your vineyard. Empirical support for that mechanism comes from the smoke taint that unfortunately we've encountered in West Coast vineyards in recent years.

Mark Lipton

 

[robert ames]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by MLipton:
Marc,
Where I get hung up in this whole discussion is the idea that minerals or nutrients taken up by the roots impart volatile components to the wine that we can smell/taste. What does granite or limestone taste like? What do they smell like, and does that smell emanate from the mineral or from microorganisms resident on the mineral surface? (SPOILER: it's the latter cf. petrichor)

This is why I find SFJoe's suggestion that the soil influences the mycorrhizal ecology resident around the roots and that it's their interaction with the roots that gives rise to the goût de terroir that experience has taught us is real so appealing. Certainly, yeast populations on grape skins and in the cellar will no doubt vary with location, too, but whether that can explain why one lieux-dit in a vineyard tastes reliably different than another I'm not sure.

Mark Lipton

But how does one explain tastes such as eucalyptus, lavender or garrigue? Are they just epiphenomena?

That’s been answered above. If you can smell them that’s due to volatile oils. Those same oils can settle on grape skins and even transit through the skins into the pulp.

Mark Lipton

So where does the lavender that I've gotten in wines from places like Burgundy come from?

provence?

 

[Steve Edmunds]

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by MLipton:
Marc,
Where I get hung up in this whole discussion is the idea that minerals or nutrients taken up by the roots impart volatile components to the wine that we can smell/taste. What does granite or limestone taste like? What do they smell like, and does that smell emanate from the mineral or from microorganisms resident on the mineral surface? (SPOILER: it's the latter cf. petrichor)

This is why I find SFJoe's suggestion that the soil influences the mycorrhizal ecology resident around the roots and that it's their interaction with the roots that gives rise to the goût de terroir that experience has taught us is real so appealing. Certainly, yeast populations on grape skins and in the cellar will no doubt vary with location, too, but whether that can explain why one lieux-dit in a vineyard tastes reliably different than another I'm not sure.

Mark Lipton

But how does one explain tastes such as eucalyptus, lavender or garrigue? Are they just epiphenomena?

That“s been answered above. If you can smell them that“s due to volatile oils. Those same oils can settle on grape skins and even transit through the skins into the pulp.

Mark Lipton

So where does the lavender that I've gotten in wines from places like Burgundy come from?

Perhaps the perfume of the femme fatale at the table next to you, Claude? Seriously, though, we get violets in Nebbiolo, bacon fat in N Rhone Syrah. I'm not saying that volatile oils are the only way that aromas are

imparted to wine grapes, simply that it's a likely source when you have a lavender field or eucalyptus tree proximate to your vineyard. Empirical support for that mechanism comes from the smoke taint that unfortunately we've encountered in West Coast vineyards in recent years.

Mark Lipton

There's a compound in Syrah grapes that's also involved in smoke taint: guaiacol--n'est-ce pas? (But I digress)

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by MLipton:
I'm not saying that volatile oils are the only way that aromas are imparted to wine grapesMark Lipton

OK, that's all I wanted to hear.