Words from KL

originally posted by Joe_Perry:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:

The Allemand NoSO2 bottling now has SO2 added at bottling (at least the ones Kermit buys). So there basically is no longer an Allemand NoSO2 bottling for American drinkers.
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Parce que...?
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Too many of the wines with no SO2 at all have gone bad.
 
Really? I guess we have been lucky, or does luck have nothing to do with it...
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by Joe_Perry:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:

The Allemand NoSO2 bottling now has SO2 added at bottling (at least the ones Kermit buys). So there basically is no longer an Allemand NoSO2 bottling for American drinkers.
Click to expand...

Parce que...?
Click to expand...
Too many of the wines with no SO2 at all have gone bad.
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Sounds to me like I need to drink some of Dougherty's to see how they're doing.
 
originally posted by Joe_Perry:
Really? I guess we have been lucky, or does luck have nothing to do with it...
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He's been having them add the SO2 at the end for a number of years now. In fact, virtually all the non-S02 producers that I visit, whether imported by Kermit or by others, are doing so. This includes Ponsot, Pacalet, Barret. The problem was bad enough that one of the early proponents of the movement, Roy Richards (who still imports Allemand's other wines into the UK), abandoned all non-SO2 wines a number of years ago, regardless of whether SO2 was added at the end or not.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Joe_Perry:
Really? I guess we have been lucky, or does luck have nothing to do with it...
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He's been having them add the SO2 at the end for a number of years now. In fact, virtually all the non-S02 producers that I visit, whether imported by Kermit or by others, are doing so. This includes Ponsot, Pacalet, Barret. The problem was bad enough that one of the early proponents of the movement, Roy Richards (who still imports Allemand's other wines into the UK), abandoned all non-SO2 wines a number of years ago, regardless of whether SO2 was added at the end or not.
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From a commercial standpoint, it just makes too much sense. Non-SO2'd wines are about the most fragile commercial cargo going, apart from certain biological samples of interest to only a small number of people, requiring scrupulous control of an international supply chain. Too much risk, not enough payoff from where I sit.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:

Too much risk, not enough payoff from where I sit.
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Lynch was quite straightforward in his explanation of his decision to basically not import non-SO2 wines as a decision undertaken because he didn't feel such wines were fair to the consumer, especially the consumer who might only try one bottle and not have others of the same laying around to wait out an "off period" in the hopes that they would come right. But even Lynch was quite sure that there was a noticeable taste different between wines that had seen SO2 and ones that hadn't. He felt that the use of SO2 divided up the flavor of the wine, and he used his hands in a kind of cutting motion as he described this, the divisions in the taste he had found. He felt the non-SO2 wines to be more all of a piece, in terms of flavor. And he seemed quite happy with the wines he had purchased from Chauvet, and he expressed disappointment that Chauvet had ending up dying so soon after they had starting to do business together.

In a way, the SO2 can be seen almost as a Tower of Babel style situation.
 
The Chauvet wines were quite extraordinary. As for Kermit's regret about Chauvet's dying so soon, he did live to 82 or 84 (sources differ), after all, a long lifespan for his generation.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:


But even Lynch was quite sure that there was a noticeable taste different between wines that had seen SO2 and ones that hadn't. He felt that the use of SO2 divided up the flavor of the wine, and he used his hands in a kind of cutting motion as he described this, the divisions in the taste he had found. He felt the non-SO2 wines to be more all of a piece, in terms of flavor.
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In a similar vein, I found a tasting in Marcel Lapierre's cellar back in '01 quite instructional: in the midst of various barrel samples, he gave us a side-by-side comparison of two wines. After stating our preferences, it was revealed that they were the same wine, one with SO2 and the other without. Of the 5 of us who sampled them (excluding the cellar staff, who were obviously not tasting blind) all preferred the sans soufre, finding it to be fruitier, fresher and more lively than the sulfured version. Lapierre was quite adamant, though, that he wouldn't sell the sans soufre to anyone who couldn't guarantee transportation and storage temperatures never to exceed 14C.

Mark Lipton
 
I would not have compared the 2001 Pallieres I had to Burgundy, but then I know next to nothing in general about Gigondas. Probably more elegant than the typical slightly tarry Gigondas, but I still found the 2001 Pallieres to be on the rustic side, but definitely brimming with character. An invigorating wine...

Anyone want to crack a 2001 magnum in the San Francisco area, let me know...
 
Had the 2000 Allemand SS (along with the 2000 Reynard and 2005 Chaillot) last night. They were all delicious. As I often find, both the Reynard and SS were delicious, but the SS just struck me as more integrated and complete, while the Reynard will be a great wine but seems to need some more time integrate.

Kind of like the difference between college hockey and the pro level. The college kids are just as big, skate just as fast and shoot just as hard - but the pros just seem more organized. As with the better college kids, the Reynard looks like will turn into a star at the pro level eventually - it just needs some more time and coaching.

It did affirm my faith in the 2000s, though. Nice wines, both.

BTW, the SS was purchased from the source, and hand-carried home to a very cold cellar so I'm afraid I can't provide any data on stability other than that this bottle clearly did not have a problem and I was very happy to have the opportunity to enjoy it with good friends and an appreciative audience.
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:


But even Lynch was quite sure that there was a noticeable taste different between wines that had seen SO2 and ones that hadn't. He felt that the use of SO2 divided up the flavor of the wine, and he used his hands in a kind of cutting motion as he described this, the divisions in the taste he had found. He felt the non-SO2 wines to be more all of a piece, in terms of flavor.
Click to expand...

In a similar vein, I found a tasting in Marcel Lapierre's cellar back in '01 quite instructional: in the midst of various barrel samples, he gave us a side-by-side comparison of two wines. After stating our preferences, it was revealed that they were the same wine, one with SO2 and the other without. Of the 5 of us who sampled them (excluding the cellar staff, who were obviously not tasting blind) all preferred the sans soufre, finding it to be fruitier, fresher and more lively than the sulfured version. Lapierre was quite adamant, though, that he wouldn't sell the sans soufre to anyone who couldn't guarantee transportation and storage temperatures never to exceed 14C.

Mark Lipton
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I would expect that difference in barrel samples, but I wonder if anyone has repeated the experiment with bottled wines after a year or two.

The enthusiasm for no-SO2 must collide with the enthusiasm for non-filtration; as Tom Lehrer put it, 'like a Christian Scientist with appendicitis.' Does anyone make even marginally stable wines with neither, I wonder?
 
I know a couple of people who bottle no-SO2 wines that stay in cask for a long time. The makers feel that there is more opportunity for full stability to be achieved.
 
I'm tired but hope to write an article on this in the near future.

Kermit is wrong. He brings in Pierre Breton's wines in California. Nuits d'Ivresse has no SO2.

He brings in Antoine Arena in California. No SO2 in any of the wines.

There is a lot of confusion here. Kermit, along with us, has many growers who do not use SO2 during the vinification and add just a little at or before the bottling.

We do many non-sulfured bottlings and only rarely have problems. We have had problems of stability on rare occasions, but that is the price you pay for taking risks to get something better into the market.

The question of sulphur is similar to the question of filtration. A shitty wine unfiltered is still a shitty wine. A great wine filtered gently and with care is different than a wine pumped and processed with speed and brutality.

Anyhow, I have to take the last chemotherapy pill of the past 40 days. I hope to write more in the near future.
 
originally posted by mlawton:
Had the 2000 Allemand SS (along with the 2000 Reynard and 2005 Chaillot) last night. They were all delicious. As I often find, both the Reynard and SS were delicious, but the SS just struck me as more integrated and complete, while the Reynard will be a great wine but seems to need some more time integrate.

Kind of like the difference between college hockey and the pro level. The college kids are just as big, skate just as fast and shoot just as hard - but the pros just seem more organized. As with the better college kids, the Reynard looks like will turn into a star at the pro level eventually - it just needs some more time and coaching.

It did affirm my faith in the 2000s, though. Nice wines, both.

BTW, the SS was purchased from the source, and hand-carried home to a very cold cellar so I'm afraid I can't provide any data on stability other than that this bottle clearly did not have a problem and I was very happy to have the opportunity to enjoy it with good friends and an appreciative audience.
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One day I will actually be in the room when you open another Allemand SS. I think the one time it actually happened was the time I could not drink because I was on my way to work later.
 
originally posted by Oliver McCrum:

I would expect that difference in barrel samples, but I wonder if anyone has repeated the experiment with bottled wines after a year or two.
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Indeed, Oliver. Lapierre, as I recall, said that the sulfured wine did recover much of its character with time, but that he felt that the no-SO2 wine remained more appealing even with time.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by Oliver McCrum:
I would expect that difference in barrel samples, but I wonder if anyone has repeated the experiment with bottled wines after a year or two.
Click to expand...

An interesting example, for me, is Drappier's Blanc de Noirs Brut Nature. No dosage, and they put out a sulphured and a sans soufre version. The latter is just wild with character, whereas the former is pretty staid and muted. I've tasted the sulphured version after some time in the bottle and it does not get back that complexity.

That said, the sans soufre version tends to oxidize and doesn't last the year.

originally posted by SFJoe:
I know a couple of people who bottle no-SO2 wines that stay in cask for a long time. The makers feel that there is more opportunity for full stability to be achieved.
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I have heard this. Any concrete experience to relate?
 
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:

originally posted by SFJoe:
I know a couple of people who bottle no-SO2 wines that stay in cask for a long time. The makers feel that there is more opportunity for full stability to be achieved.
Click to expand...

I have heard this. Any concrete experience to relate?
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Anecdotes all.

The microbiological notion is that minority bugs have a chance to slowly eat the residual odd food (pentoses and etc.) that they would otherwise referment in bottle, and that their metabolites settle down in the wine, any CO2 escapes, and so on. (see, I split an infinitive! I can do it!)

Examples would be a cuvee of Chateauneuf from Texier, a Vouvray from Puzelat, and so on. But they wouldn't claim the wines to be as robust as ones with SO2 or filtration or other measures. Texier won't sell the wine for export, I believe.
 
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