TNs: German Rieslings and a Chinon

Ian Fitzsimmons

Ian Fitzsimmons
Doennhoff Niederhaeuser Hermannshoehle Spaetlese trocken 1999

Youthful straw color, aromas past petrol to a kind of refined brown sugar, model glue sort of thing. Medium-bodied, smooth, well-integrated. With maturish Riesling, I have the hardest time finding flavor descriptors, it seems to be all about sensation: texture, balance, and integration. This is very clear and smooth, all of a piece, but with more weight/body (12% abv) than, say, a MSR with residual sugar.

Fine food wine with turbot, asparagus and baked potato.

J.J. Christoffel Uerziger Wuerzgarten Auslese* 1998

Straw-colored, fine aromas of sea-breeze, with a suspicion of citrus and glucose. Once again, hard to pin down flavors, but enjoyed the wine's very fine feeling, as if of snow melt running over rocks, with a touch of honey. Wonderfully light but a tad short on the finish.

Excellent as an aperitif with Stilton, and at the end of the meal with a pastry-based desert. Based on this bottle, I would drink these soon; but this bottle had what looked like some dried fruit sugar trapped between the cork and capsule and so was probably a leaker.

2003 J.J. Christoffel Uerziger Wuerzgarten Kabinett

Dark straw, aromas of burnt sugar, caramel, apple pie; decent balance, tho not typical for a MSR Kabinett, with a kind of broad, flat mid-palate, but still cleansing acidity. Apple pie, cinnamon, some sugar, though not obnoxious; well further along in its integration than, say, the 2002, and lacking the 2002's steely backbone.

This wine gets a lot of bad press in, say, Cellartracker, but we've had two bottles recently and it's not at all bad, just out of the mold for its type. It's closer to Spaetlese in body. It definitely lacks the lightness of touch that characterized the 98 Auslese above.

Joguet les Petites Roches 2005

Opened the night before, decanted about two hours before drinking. Deep dark red, aromas of cherry offset slightly by bell peppers, flavors following the nose, with chunky tannin.

The massy tannins step on this wine's charm as a sipper, but it was terrific with food (hipster pizza: roasted tomatoes, mixed cheeses, shallots, garlic and onion, on sourdough focacia). This is a hell of a lot of wine for about $15.40 (case discount). I tasted at the store from a bottle that had been open several days and it was downright creamy, so I suppose this wine has a bright future ahead of it.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Okay, except for Baudry, and Raffault.

I'm still not quite following you.

Traffic is slower here than elsewhere, thread drift goes further than elsewhere, and the history of this 'forum' is pretty recent so the archives don't have particular slants in any direction. Given all those things, this is not the place (at the moment) to come for Daily Discussion of Chinon.

But, I don't think it's the place to come for Daily Discussion of Any Particular Wine. And given all these factors, the Loire (red and white) always seemed to me to be pretty well-covered here.

Of course I haven't been compiling statistics on the issue.
 
No statistics here either, and the discussion of Loire wines in this forum is phenomenal. In that context, my impression is that Chinon gets generally less attention than others. But this is a minor point, in any event, and I've edited out the comment.
 
I've asked this before in another place, but would anyone venture to describe the differences in taste between Cab Franc from Chinon and Bourgueil? Or are these differences too small to be discerned amidst differences in winemaking?
 
originally posted by Arjun Mendiratta:
I've asked this before in another place, but would anyone venture to describe the differences in taste between Cab Franc from Chinon and Bourgueil? Or are these differences too small to be discerned amidst differences in winemaking?
At the risk of making a piss-poor generalization, I often taste darker-toned fruit in Bourgueil than Chinon.

But could I consistently tell them apart blind, from a producer who makes both (i.e. Breton), probably not.
 
David:

Sorry, it's the UW - I've edited to show. Did not write down the APN. With all the great German Riesling you stock, I wouldn't expect you to take much interest in this wine. Purely from the point of view of utility, we can find a niche for it in our menu.

I have a few of the 03 UW Spaets, too, and am planning to try one soon, though I do so with considerable apprehension ...
 
originally posted by MarkS:
C'mon Rahsaan: we all know Joguet is just not hip enough for the powers that be here.

Be there powers here?

I keep saying that Joguet has had a nice new uptick in quality again in recent vintages.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Arjun Mendiratta:
Or are these differences too small to be discerned amidst differences in winemaking?

I believe this is the general consensus.
Allow me to disrupt the consensus.

(Sorry, I lost the first version of this reply and will abbreviate)

There is a diversity of terroir within each town that leads to a diversity in wines. There are sandy sites, clay sites, sites up the hill showing more limestone, and so on in both. So even with transparent, consistent winemaking there will be significant overlap.

So Rahsaan, I don't think it's fair to implicate the winemaking instead of the terroir.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
There is a diversity of terroir within each town that leads to a diversity in wines. There are sandy sites, clay sites, sites up the hill showing more limestone, and so on in both...So Rahsaan, I don't think it's fair to implicate the winemaking instead of the terroir.

If I understood the question correctly, it was not whether winemaking was more important than terroir for the wines from Bourgueil and Chinon.

Rather, Arjun wanted to know whether there were significant terroir differences between the two towns that distinguished Bourgueil from Chinon, apart from winemaking.

And you seem to agree that both towns have a mixture of soils without necessarily having distinctive "Bourgueil" vs. "Chinon" terroir stamps?
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by SFJoe:
There is a diversity of terroir within each town that leads to a diversity in wines. There are sandy sites, clay sites, sites up the hill showing more limestone, and so on in both...So Rahsaan, I don't think it's fair to implicate the winemaking instead of the terroir.

If I understood the question correctly, it was not whether winemaking was more important than terroir for the wines from Bourgueil and Chinon.

Rather, Arjun wanted to know whether there were significant terroir differences between the two towns that distinguished Bourgueil from Chinon, apart from winemaking.

And you seem to agree that both towns have a mixture of soils without necessarily having distinctive "Bourgueil" vs. "Chinon" terroir stamps?
I fear I'm not following the two of you.

Arjun wrote:
Or are these differences too small to be discerned amidst differences in winemaking?
and you agreed. I would say instead that the intra-town variability in site is very high in both Chinon and Bourgeuil, and that winemaking need not enter into the question at all. The differences between some Chinon sites and some Bourgeuil sites can be quite large, but so can the differences between one Bourgeuil site and another.

Do I still misunderstand?
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
I fear I'm not following the two of you.

Arjun wrote:
Or are these differences too small to be discerned amidst differences in winemaking?
and you agreed. I would say instead that the intra-town variability in site is very high in both Chinon and Bourgeuil, and that winemaking need not enter into the question at all. The differences between some Chinon sites and some Bourgeuil sites can be quite large, but so can the differences between one Bourgeuil site and another.

Do I still misunderstand?

For what it's worth, I agree with what you wrote.

The first part of Arjun's comment asked about whether one could distinguish differences between cabernet franc from Chinon and Bourgueil, or whether it was all about winemaking.

My response was meant to convey the idea that (to my knowledge and from my experience) there are no major terroir differences that make for classic 'Chinon' vs. 'Bourgueil' signatures.

But your nuances are much appreciated.

Especially for Ian who felt we were lacking Chinon discussion!
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

Joguet les Petites Roches 2005

Opened the night before, decanted about two hours before drinking. Deep dark red, aromas of cherry offset slightly by bell peppers, flavors following the nose, with chunky tannin.

The massy tannins step on this wine's charm as a sipper, but it was terrific with food (hipster pizza: roasted tomatoes, mixed cheeses, shallots, garlic and onion, on sourdough focacia). This is a hell of a lot of wine for about $15.40 (case discount). I tasted at the store from a bottle that had been open several days and it was downright creamy, so I suppose this wine has a bright future ahead of it.

This was very nice over here last night. Not super-complex but those cherries and palate-staining red fruits are tremendous. It probably has a few more years before one ought to drink it but it is an excellent QPR at least in the mouth right now.

Tonight we followed up with some infanticide on the 2005 Joguet Dioterie, which even with an all-day decant has years and years to go. (We knew this; we're on a cellar downsizing program around here.) Same beautiful fruit, more oak, more promise of interesting subtleties down the line.

These Joguet wines give me a lot of what I want and rarely get out of California or Bordeaux these days. The fruit is sweetish and the alcohol is non-trivial (13.5 and 14 in these two wines) but they taste like wine. I would recommend both of these to more mainstream wine drinkers looking for stuff to cellar and/or to save money on in a heartbeat.

They are also well balanced and show some terroir, though I wouldn't call them transparent. But I did think it was interesting that to my palate at least they fit better into my Bordeaux/Napa paradigms than they did into my Loire cabernet profile. Do others experience them similarly?
 
05 was, by all accounts, a very ripe year for Loire reds, which could account for the profile shift you noticed. The few I've tried have been less far from B'x cab-based wines (I haven't had a napa wine in ages) than in other years.

In any event, the Petites Roches is a very good winter wine for its price, though I'd be happier with slightly lower abv. Calling Chris Smith?
 
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