Coates's Burgundy Tomes

I

Ian Fitzsimmons

Ian Fitzsimmons
I had a chance the other day to browse through Clive Coates's recent The Wines of Burgundy and noted that it seems to build on, rather than merely update, his much earlier Cote d'Or. For those who have spent time with both volumes, if you could only buy one, which one would be more valuable to the aspiring student/pathetic addict?

I noticed also that he wrote a smaller book for an Oz Clark series - any experience with that one out there?

Finally, when is someone finally going to reprint Matt Kraemer's book on the subject? Are there any bootleg copies floating around?
 
You really can't separate the two books, and Clive deliberately (I think) did that and has done it for these books and his books on Bordeaux and Wines of France, as well. He wants those royalties.

The earlier work is more complete, the second one less so but contains important updating. (I'm referring to factual information and not to tasting notes. If you want them for tasting notes, obviously, the later book would be more useful.)

No comment on the book from the Oz Clark series as I've never seen it.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
You really can't separate the two books, and Clive deliberately (I think) did that and has done it for these books and his books on Bordeaux and Wines of France, as well. He wants those royalties.

The earlier work is more complete, the second one less so but contains important updating. (I'm referring to factual information and not to tasting notes. If you want them for tasting notes, obviously, the later book would be more useful.)
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Just to amplify on what Claude said: if you want the latest growers' profiles or information on Chablis or reviews of recent wines, the newer book is for you. OTOH, if you want the most detail about Burgundy itself and the differences between communes and climats or reviews of older wines, the first book is your choice. Ideally, you get both as they really do complement one another.

Mark Lipton
 
I would say both are invaluable as a tasting note resource. I admire the radical inconsistency as I feel that that reflects reality rather well. I'm sure Claude's right about the royalties but I wonder if the publishers insisted on new material? most of his works are not afraid of recycling at all.
The Kramer book is out of date and anyway slightly suspect except for the absorbing vineyard ownership statistics. Possibly the best book of all is Remington Norman's of which I gather a revision is soon to be finished.
 
originally posted by Tom Blach:
I would say both are invaluable as a tasting note resource. I admire the radical inconsistency as I feel that that reflects reality rather well. I'm sure Claude's right about the royalties but I wonder if the publishers insisted on new material? most of his works are not afraid of recycling at all.
The Kramer book is out of date and anyway slightly suspect except for the absorbing vineyard ownership statistics.
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Agreed, more or less.

Possibly the best book of all is Remington Norman's of which I gather a revision is soon to be finished.
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This is excellent news.
 
Norman's books costs more than both of Coates's volumes together; is it that much better?

I'd like to shore up my rather scattershot knowledge of vineyards and producers, so perhaps Coates Vol. I would be cost-optimal, though it seems there must have been a change or two even in these durable subject areas over the past 12 years.

If I get seriously interested in professional tasting notes, I'll splash out for a subscription to Tanzer or Meadows (or Robinson).

Many thanks for all the responses!

[edited March 6]

PS: I don't really look to Matt Kraemer for factual information, but I like the way he thinks about wine. Same with David Schildknecht - when's he going to publish?
 
originally posted by VLM:
...

Possibly the best book of all is Remington Norman's of which I gather a revision is soon to be finished.
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This is excellent news.
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The revision of Norman's book (not executed by Norman himself) has been out for a bit now, by the way. From Amazon, $22-23. Took delivery yesterday: it reads beautifully, though the criteria for domaine selection isn't perfectly clear, and I gather from reading elsewhere that an errata sheet should be attached.
 
You are not likely to see a reprint of Matt Kramer's book because the records that would need to be consulted to update the bulk of the information are no longer public. However, you can still find used copies at a reasonable price on Amazon, abebooks, or the Strand from time to time. I would also seek out copies of Hubrecht Duijker's and Anthony Hanson's Burgundy books if you're browsing the OOP section.

The Norman book is essential though it sort of helps to read the domaine profiles as a collection of puff pieces. Still, there is a ton of information here you won't find anywhere else (stuff like the particular coopers each domaine uses).
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
You are not likely to see a reprint of Matt Kramer's book because the records that would need to be consulted to update the bulk of the information are no longer public. However, you can still find used copies at a reasonable price on Amazon, abebooks, or the Strand from time to time. I would also seek out copies of Hubrecht Duijker's and Anthony Hanson's Burgundy books if you're browsing the OOP section.

The Norman book is essential though it sort of helps to read the domaine profiles as a collection of puff pieces. Still, there is a ton of information here you won't find anywhere else (stuff like the particular coopers each domaine uses).
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Hanson isn't OoP is it? I thought he was updating as well.
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
You are not likely to see a reprint of Matt Kramer's book because the records that would need to be consulted to update the bulk of the information are no longer public. However, you can still find used copies at a reasonable price on Amazon, abebooks, or the Strand from time to time. I would also seek out copies of Hubrecht Duijker's and Anthony Hanson's Burgundy books if you're browsing the OOP section.

The Norman book is essential though it sort of helps to read the domaine profiles as a collection of puff pieces. Still, there is a ton of information here you won't find anywhere else (stuff like the particular coopers each domaine uses).
Click to expand...

I have Kramer's Burgundy book now. He's just published a new volume of compiled columns, on the other hand, which I aim to acquire.

The chat elsewhere is that the revisions to the third edition of Norman's book were made by Charles Taylor, a British ITB MW; and, further, that both Norman and Taylor are coming out soon with new books on Burgundy.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

The chat elsewhere is that the revisions to the third edition of Norman's book were made by Charles Taylor, a British ITB MW; and, further, that both Norman and Taylor are coming out soon with new books on Burgundy.
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Taylor is responsible for the revision (see fine print on last page of the book) although Norman read the MS and must have done some consulting. I have a review of the book in the issue of The World of Fine Wine that is coming out later this month.

Norman does indeed have another book coming out this fall -- sounds from the title as though it's about vineyards and terroirs: Grand Cru: The Great Wines of Burgundy Through the Perspective of Its Finest Vineyards. I was unaware that Taylor has one coming out, too.
 
Thanks Claude, Keith has a point. Re: Taylor, I'm just spreading a rumor I saw on another board.

Hey, do you happen to know the scoop on Jadot's les Hauts Jarrons bottling? There's a 2008, but I've never seen it before and can't find anything about it on the net.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

Hey, do you happen to know the scoop on Jadot's les Hauts Jarrons bottling? There's a 2008, but I've never seen it before and can't find anything about it on the net.
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I've tasted it from barrel, and as I recall it was good. I think it may be a relatively new wine for Jadot (perhaps young vines from their Dominode patch?).
 
That would make sense; I thought use of the Dominode name was limited to parts of the Jarrons down-slope from les Hauts, and maybe this was a new acquisition.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
That would make sense; I thought use of the Dominode name was limited to parts of the Jarrons down-slope from les Hauts, and maybe this was a new acquisition.
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You may be right; there are some funny rules for labelling there that I've never seen printed, but maybe it was for Jarrons and not Hauts-Jarrons.
 
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
You are not likely to see a reprint of Matt Kramer's book because the records that would need to be consulted to update the bulk of the information are no longer public. However, you can still find used copies at a reasonable price on Amazon, abebooks, or the Strand from time to time. I would also seek out copies of Hubrecht Duijker's and Anthony Hanson's Burgundy books if you're browsing the OOP section.

The Norman book is essential though it sort of helps to read the domaine profiles as a collection of puff pieces. Still, there is a ton of information here you won't find anywhere else (stuff like the particular coopers each domaine uses).
Click to expand...

Hanson isn't OoP is it? I thought he was updating as well.
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Hanson replied to an email I sent him. He's too busy selling/auctioning wine. He also suggested bidding on a barrel at the Hospices de Beaune auction.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Sounds like horse racing. Any particular barrel?
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Christie's apparently runs the auction so there's a bunch of different barrels with new and improved pricing.
 
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